Phil Gafka: Leveraging a Multigenerational Workforce to Enhance Law Firm Culture

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Phil Gafka discuss:

• The impact of cultural shifts on workplace harmony
• The role of clear expectations in boosting employee morale and productivity
• How inclusive leadership practices improve job satisfaction
• Leveraging unique team experiences and backgrounds

Key Takeaways:

• Embracing cultural changes, valuing diverse perspectives, and fostering collaboration create a more inclusive and harmonious workplace for all employees.
• Clear communication of organizational goals and work-life balance boosts employee loyalty, satisfaction, retention, and productivity.
• Emphasizing collaborative and inclusive leadership over top-down management enhances job satisfaction and career fulfillment, making employees feel valued and heard.
• Leveraging unique backgrounds and experiences fosters a respectful, innovative environment that strengthens the community and boosts overall performance and satisfaction.

“Culture is everything. How you do what you do is the biggest indicator of whether you’re going to be successful.” —  Phil Gafka

Read more from Steve at Above the Law: AboveTheLaw.com/tag/Steve-Fretzin/

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Episode References: 

The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek: https://www.amazon.com/Infinite-Game-Simon-Sinek/dp/073521350X

About Phil Gafka: Phil Gafka is a Certified Business Coach and the Founder of LEAP Associates, Inc., a premier executive coaching and business development firm. With four decades of leadership and business development experience, Phil excels in helping clients, including business owners, executives, and entrepreneurs, unlock their potential for elevated performance. He specializes in executive coaching, strategic planning, and team leadership, using his extensive experience and certifications in tools like DISC and the TriMetrix Legacy Profile to guide clients toward their goals. Phil’s unique insights and practical approach stem from his own journey from corporate executive to successful business owner.

Connect with Phil Gafka:  

Website: https://www.leapcoaching.com/

Email: Phil@leapcoaching.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/philgafka/

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LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

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Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I just want to share that I’m now writing for Above the Law. If you enjoy this podcast, you might also enjoy my monthly columns. You can go to Above the Law and type my name into the magnifying glass in the top right corner to read my latest articles. Thanks and enjoy the show.

[00:00:21] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:43] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody. Welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are rocking and rolling. Twice a week to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Oh man, it’s, summer’s wrapping up rapidly here in Chicago. We’re not getting the heat like some other places, but we’re having some good, some good golf weather.

[00:01:01] Steve Fretzin: Phil, are you getting your rounds in? 

[00:01:03] Phil Gafka: I’m getting, I’ve got a, a goal of 40 rounds a season and I’m on track for this year. So I should, it should be another good, I just wish the golf. Is that a 

[00:01:11] Steve Fretzin: business goal or a personal goal? What is that? Yes. I love it. I played Dubs Dread last weekend and that just, that took the life right out of me.

[00:01:20] Steve Fretzin: That is a rough course. 

[00:01:21] Phil Gafka: Was 

[00:01:22] Steve Fretzin: that number three? Number four. Conk Hill number four is Dubs Dread. And I, and I dreaded most of it. It’s right there in the name, right? So, you know, I feel like it should be a course in Jamaica. I’m not sure why. Dubs Dread. But what’s the, what’s the coolest course you played in the summer?

[00:01:38] Steve Fretzin: Ooh. 

[00:01:39] Phil Gafka: Oh, the hardest course I played was Aurora Country Club. Okay. They had greens that were running really quick, and there was one that, you know, uphill, if you didn’t put the ball in the hole, it would come back further than your first putt. 

[00:01:49] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I’ve played those courses, and that takes, that takes the life right out of you, right?

[00:01:53] Steve Fretzin: It does. You had a good putt, and then you miss by an inch, but it ends up being ten feet. Well, I’m not going back there. Okay, that’s that. All right. Sorry to the people of Aurora. Phil so great to have you back on the show we were trying to figure out if this was your second or third time either way every time you come on it’s magic we we we always have great conversations i want to start off with our quote of the show which is our good old friend who’s that peter drucker probably right culture eats strategy for breakfast that’s something people have heard quite a bit talk about that quote and welcome to the show man.

[00:02:25] Steve Fretzin: Thank 

[00:02:25] Phil Gafka: you. Good to be back. I’m a real big culture guy when I work with clients, you know, it’s one thing to have a strategy and a vision and all those good things. But if your culture doesn’t support what you’re trying to accomplish, you’re never going to get there. Yeah. And, you know, to me, culture is everything.

[00:02:43] Phil Gafka: How you do what you do. Is the biggest indicator of whether you’re going to be successful. And, you know, people working with a new client, there are 250 people. And the initial meeting, you know, they like, you know, we don’t have anything out there for our people. It’s just kind of evolved. And, you know, No, the meeting actually started by the problem employee that charge, you know, we have to start at the beginnings that yes, it’s the better place to start.

[00:03:12] Phil Gafka: Where are you going and how are you going to get there? And the how part is to me more important than the where you go, the how and the who. And the why? Wow, all good questions. That’s it, you know, but when people, you know, get those right, that’s your, your, like, your Twin North Stars, where you’re going and how you’re going to get there.

[00:03:32] Phil Gafka: The, the challenge you’re going to encounter along the way, you use those. Hey, you know, vision wise, is what we want to do in line with that vision, yes or no? If it is probably a good chance you should be doing it. If not, probably a good chance you shouldn’t be doing it. And then culture wise, who’s fitting, you know, you may have a high producer, but if they’re being detrimental to the culture of the organization and they stay, no, they either have to get with it or get out.

[00:03:58] Phil Gafka: And I do know this from experience that everybody else, you know, sits up a little bit straighter and goes, Oh my God, they’re actually serious about this stuff. And when you get serious, you get people engaged at a higher level. 

[00:04:10] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I, I not changing the subject completely, but that, that quota has been twisted around a bunch.

[00:04:15] Steve Fretzin: And, and the one that I picked up on was discipline, its motivation for breakfast when I’m talking about individual efforts of, of people on business development. And that’s my most recent above the law article. If you guys want to search that on above the law, just type in my name in the, in the magnifying glass box or whatever, but it’s, it’s, you know, lawyers can’t get it.

[00:04:36] Steve Fretzin: Where they want to go just just being motivated they’ve got to have the discipline to execute and i think that could go to culture that could go to business development that could go to creating processes and just never putting him in place because you don’t have the discipline. Either hire someone to do it or the discipline to do it yourself whatever that might be but that that quote has been moved around quite a bit over the years and then with good reason it’s a it’s a it’s a fun easy way to kind of take in.

[00:05:02] Steve Fretzin: Different variations 

[00:05:04] Phil Gafka: without a doubt you’re right on track, you know, the discipline starts, you know, leadership starts with self leadership You can learn how to lead you. It’s a whole lot easier to lead others and lead organizations Yeah, but it is that you know do what you need to be doing. 

[00:05:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, right on.

[00:05:17] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, right on you guys You’re listening to phil gafka here on the Fretzin and talk show now. Chief cook at bottle washer at leap coaching and you’ve been you’ve been we we’ve known each other a long time and you’re you’re just You This coach that can take a CEO can take an executive and really get them in line with what they’re doing.

[00:05:35] Steve Fretzin: Give us a little background. Cause that’s not, that’s not where you started. Take us to how you, how you came to be. 

[00:05:40] Phil Gafka: Well, I spent about 30 years in the appliance distribution business. First company I was with 23 years went from sales up to running the organization and being a wholesale distributor. We were involved with products like Sub Zero, Viking range, Perverter Ion appliances for the kitchen.

[00:05:58] Phil Gafka: And calling on other businesses exclusively, you start to see why does business A always do well? Why does business B always struggle? What are those foundational elements that are or not in place that help organizations, you know, be successful, you know, more times than not? And after 23 years left that company, started another company with Viking distributor or Viking in the Midwest ran that for five years.

[00:06:23] Phil Gafka: And again, you know, doubled the business and learned a lot more about how to lead an organization and not try to manage it. And that’s some of the magic I see with the better run organizations out there. They’re not in managed process. You meet people, it’s two different disciplines and the organizations that understand the leadership part of what they need to do versus just the management part are the ones that can truly align their people and get to where they want to go or get a lot closer.

[00:06:54] Steve Fretzin: Yeah it’s mostly the law firm managers that are wearing, even solos, that are wearing, you know, half a dozen hats, right? They’re leading, they’re managing, they’re selling, they’re producing, they’re administrating, marketing, and it’s very, very challenging for them to be successful. That’s not, when you look at the formula of a successful company, there’s very few where, yeah, it’s one guy that, or one gal that’s like doing every role.

[00:07:20] Steve Fretzin: In that company successfully right that i i i would love to hear that story of something that was successful that way cuz it hasn’t come up 

[00:07:29] Phil Gafka: no i think you know when you’re looking at those professional services. I do work with attorneys and those managing partner roles and they tell him i hate your type.

[00:07:40] Phil Gafka: Because you’re thinking like a manager, you need to think like a leader. And again, just what you said, you know, the leader doesn’t have to do everything. There’s important things to be done, but it’s not important that the leader does all those things. So how do you build a team? How do you engage other people?

[00:07:57] Phil Gafka: You know, and the team is what’s going to be successful. Not necessarily just that individual, but it is a mindset. 

[00:08:04] Steve Fretzin: And there’s challenges that every organization faces, whether it’s Google or Apple or the local law firm up the street. What are you seeing as sort of the top cultural challenges that affect their ability to be successful?

[00:08:17] Phil Gafka: Well, these days there’s a couple of main ones. Great question. One is that this is the first time in our history, we’ve got five generations in the work. And trying to align five different value structures, not right or wrong, just different value structure. Each generation has been brought up under different socioeconomic world political events.

[00:08:41] Phil Gafka: And there’s no right or wrong. I mean, millennial state, you know, I think every older generation picks on the younger generation beneath them. 

[00:08:52] Steve Fretzin: Well, is that because, is that because Gen X is best? I just can’t. Okay, we’ll go with that. 

[00:08:58] Phil Gafka: I was kind of prone to baby boobers myself. Ah, shoot. Okay. But that’s the thing.

[00:09:03] Phil Gafka: It’s learning how do you leverage what each of those generations brings to the game. And how do you, you know, create cross generational teams within an organization so they can each learn from one another and how do you make sure you’re using those assets that they all bring, you know, not just the generational thing, but these days you throw in DE& I, throw in LGBTQ, you throw in Black Lives Matter.

[00:09:33] Phil Gafka: And you have either a recipe for success, if you can do it correctly, or you’ve got a recipe for disaster. Yeah. And that’s where that culture part comes in. So, you know, so importantly that you’re not trying to create a culture that every single individual, you know, that it’s their culture. You’re trying to create one that like, like, Like your DNA, 23 points, you’re not going to get all 23.

[00:09:58] Phil Gafka: What are the most important ones that you have to match for that employee to be a good mix and a good match for your culture? You can get those bigger things, correct. You can do a lot of great things. Then you’re talking about alignment and you’re talking about actively engaged employees. So 

[00:10:18] Steve Fretzin: what are some of the, if you don’t mind kind of walking everybody through what, how you’re seeing.

[00:10:23] Steve Fretzin: The value of each generation and maybe we start from from the top down from the boomers down of what what’s the value of the boomer in the organization what’s the value of the jet let’s just kind of go down let’s keep will keep a positive because we can talk about the feelings of those right that’s a that’s a different that’s maybe another show another half hour but let’s just talk about the attributes the positive attributes.

[00:10:45] Phil Gafka: Well, it’s okay. We’ll start with the traditionalists, which are that, you know, you’ve got 75, 80, 80, 85 year olds in the workforce. Look at Rupert Murdoch. Okay. And they bring a different level of experience. I mean, they’re a small part of the market, a couple percent, maybe. But they bring a vast knowledge and experience base.

[00:11:09] Phil Gafka: They bring a sense of history and they bring a sense of purpose. When you get down to boomers, you know, we were boomers at their height were 80 million strong. And you, you were coming into a time of rapid expansion for technologies, for industry. You know, they, I’ll just segue, you know, they, they hit on millennials about being, you know, not loyal, not sticking around, actually the first job hoppers were baby boomers because of all these expanding technologies and industries.

[00:11:41] Phil Gafka: And they bring, you know, a lot of structure top down, not saying it’s necessarily good. They bring a lot of that, that structure to an organization. What the Millennials or the Gen Xers brought, and they were only 40 million strong, so they really couldn’t go toe to toe with those 80 million boomers, but they brought a different way.

[00:12:05] Phil Gafka: They brought a different level of technology. They brought a different understanding of life. They were exposed to many different things growing up, you know, different sets of wars, different sets of economies, and they brought a different idea of, okay, how do we do these? And it was not that same kind of structure.

[00:12:24] Phil Gafka: The Millennials took it even a step further. And I don’t, I won’t say they rebelled, but when they had another, you know, they’re 80 million strong, they can go toe to toe with any of these other groups. And so their influence technology wise, you’re seeing it in the millennials and the Gen Z’s with the work life balance.

[00:12:42] Phil Gafka: I mean, they saw the us boomers spend their whole lives. Dedicated to a job, missing out on family things because they had to, you know, had to take care of their job and be that professional. And you know what, they’ve seen there’s a better way to do this. And they want that work life balance. And so they’re starting to show that You know, the people that are still those boomers in the organization, then you know what, it’s not just about put your nose down, you know, and hit the grindstone, it’s have some fun along the way.

[00:13:16] Phil Gafka: And again, the technology that they’ve grown up with, you know, what I grew up with, we had a transistor radio, 

[00:13:21] Steve Fretzin: you know, 

[00:13:22] Phil Gafka: some of these younger generations, they’ve had 3, 4, 5 different methods of delivering information and music to themselves. And they’re used to this constant change of what’s next, what’s new, versus my generation that was, you know, hey, we have what we had and we may do it.

[00:13:41] Phil Gafka: But you’re looking at this rapid change in technology and then throw AI into it. And how each generation is learning how to use AI and be more productive and be more efficient. It’s just that, you know, these are strange things to boomers, and fortunately we’re on our way up, and it’s going to be up to these next, you know, three generations to figure out how they’re going to balance their differences.

[00:14:06] Phil Gafka: Again, we’re not talking right or wrong, but when they talk about millennials as an example, you know, not being loyal. When millennials grew up, divorce was at an all time high, as was corporate downsizing. So yeah, mom and dad worked hard, you know, put their nose down, and all of a sudden, we’re out of a job.

[00:14:23] Phil Gafka: So what did millennials learn about loyalty? They learned to look out for number one. Now, is that wrong? No, that’s what they experienced. That’s what they grew up. We just have to be able to balance that. With how do you put together an organization that acknowledges the differences and learns how to use those differences and put them together in a neat little package versus, you know, turning a blind eye and hoping that things will work out.

[00:14:52] Phil Gafka: It’s really talking about how do you get through conflict, those different generations, those different ideas of how to accomplish things. How do you learn how to talk to one another? How do you learn how to actively listen? And again, this is this. Manager versus leader mindset, the manager who has the title, you know, I’ll make the decision.

[00:15:09] Phil Gafka: That’s that top down. The leader is more concerned with, let’s talk about the best decision. Don’t care whose it is. Let’s just get the best decisions and let’s go implement and execute on those. And the organizations that are doing this, it’s not age related, it’s going for the best. 

[00:15:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Ready to take your law firm from good to GOAT?

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[00:17:12] Steve Fretzin: At Fretzin we use Get Staffed Up for Marketing Person and you know how good our marketing is. Learn more at getstaffedup. com slash be that lawyer. And I’m hearing a lot of, you know, buzzing around in the legal space about You know look there’s a work ethic that’s necessary to bill hours you know that’s the model that exists primarily in legal where you know you gotta do your you know fifteen hundred to two thousand you know in some cases more hours a year in order to hit the numbers that are expected by the organization that are organizations culture might be amazing it might be terrible but.

[00:17:50] Steve Fretzin: You know, that’s the profit model that they have. And I think it definitely segregates people by generation in some ways, because some people are going to, you know, be up for that and, and, and, you know, put their head down and others aren’t. And I think it really puts us a lot of strain on those organizations.

[00:18:07] Phil Gafka: Yeah, but that’s again, you know, if you get the, get the big things, right. Okay. And I think most people understand, look, you don’t take home a paycheck. You have to earn it, not a gift. And okay, here’s how our firm earns our paychecks. This is how we do our business. And if you, if you find the right people.

[00:18:30] Phil Gafka: That understand that and say, yes, I can. And yes, I will. Okay. There’s less fighting about, you know, what has to happen, but again, it’s really more about their cultural fit. Here’s how we do it. I’ll give you an example. And it wasn’t a law law example, but the young man I knew went to work for big company and he went to school with high school with the CEO’s son.

[00:18:52] Phil Gafka: And through that relationship and working there, he got an audience with the CEO and the CEO said, we are a dog eat dog company. You’re not watching out for your headquarters. Nobody else. I don’t like it. But they were honest about it. And if you can live in that environment and you understand the ground rules, you’ll do very well versus being a dog eat dog environment.

[00:19:11] Phil Gafka: And then they say, Oh, we’re like a family. We treat them and they give you the BS line. Well, then they’re running, you know, they’re saying something different than they’re actually doing and getting that real clarity on here’s where we’re going, here’s how we’re going to get there. Would you like to be part of this?

[00:19:27] Phil Gafka: Can you do this job? Will you do this? If it’s yes, the boat’s great. When do you want to start? 

[00:19:33] Steve Fretzin: Right but there’s also i mean i’m also looking it’s more i would say more small firms but you look i don’t want to pick on the big firms either but that are saying look we don’t want you to overwork yourself we want you to take vacations we have paternity leave and maternity we have you know we expect this work life balance you know to happen for you because we want you to be loyal and we want you to be happy and we want you to work well and work hard but also don’t make that your whole life like we want you to have a family and spend time with the kids.

[00:20:01] Steve Fretzin: Those cultures seem to be doing very well with the younger generations and why maybe some of them, you know, are leaving big law and going into 

[00:20:09] Phil Gafka: the smaller law experience. Most definitely, because really, again, what those younger generations have learned from the era of mover ways, as an example, you know.

[00:20:20] Phil Gafka: It’s about the experience. Okay. And if you’re not having fun along the way, what the heck are you doing? 

[00:20:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You’re just burning, burning through your life without really having that passion and that enjoyment and that, you know, educational experience, whatever it might be that drives you. It’s not, you know, if that’s not in play, then you’re just, you’re just dreading every day.

[00:20:38] Steve Fretzin: And there are people that their lives are like that. And I, and I’m sorry for them. And I, I want them to change their practice area, their firm, their go out on their own, like make big, make big bold decisions. Once you. Realized, you know, staying the course 

[00:20:52] Phil Gafka: isn’t, isn’t the way to go. But that’s a big step to take responsibility for your life.

[00:20:59] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And it’s 

[00:20:59] Phil Gafka: hard 

[00:21:00] Steve Fretzin: to change too. Like you get pulled into a role and experience and a job where you’re making, you know, 300 to 500, 000 a year. You’re, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re, you’re paying, you know, you get the big house and the cars and the kids and, you know, and there’s just, some of those folks, by the way, Living check to check are riddled in debt and they can’t, you know, I know someone who makes a million dollars a year and there was a time where, you know, he was borrowing money, you know, because he just couldn’t keep up with it.

[00:21:28] Steve Fretzin: It’s just some, you know, that’s just, that’s just kind of the way it goes sometimes. 

[00:21:32] Phil Gafka: Well, I think that’s one of the things too, that people get caught up in the comparison game. Yeah. And the only comparison game you can win. Is are you doing better today than you did yesterday? Yeah, there’s always going to be somebody who is more of some 

[00:21:45] Steve Fretzin: right, right.

[00:21:46] Steve Fretzin: You can’t win that game. It’s it’s yeah so how does it so let’s let’s sort of like dive into then how do? organizations align five very different generations To be successful. I mean with you’ve mentioned, you know that setting expectations of good You know bringing in the people that align with the with the values and the culture that exist You But what, what are some of the things that, that on top of that, that you would share?

[00:22:12] Phil Gafka: Well, it’s, it’s not being true to them. It’s, you know, you can put a lot of BS up on the wall, but it’s really about then whatever you’re committing to living. And if you say, look, we’re going to be about family values and work life balance when you can’t expect your people to work 60 hours a week. And you have to have a business model that supports both.

[00:22:34] Phil Gafka: And if that’s everybody makes maybe a little less, but everybody’s a little happier, if that’s really the agreed upon goal, then you get aligned. I mean, the, the, the most recent Gallup poll results, as far as in level of employee engagement or actively engaged. To actively disengage the actively engaged are the The exact opposite of the 23 behind 32 percent are actively 

[00:23:04] Steve Fretzin: engaged 32 points So to clarify 32 percent of the workforce are actively engaged in their jobs 

[00:23:11] Phil Gafka: Yeah, they’re into their job.

[00:23:12] Phil Gafka: They’re into their organization. Okay, okay 16 percent Are actively disengaged. Okay. Like do not stand at the front door at five o’clock because you will get run over on their way. It’s like my 

[00:23:27] Steve Fretzin: dog in the morning when he knows he’s going to get fed. He almost knocked, he knocks over the kid every day.

[00:23:31] Phil Gafka: Exactly. And you’ve got the other problems, but you know, right off the bat, you get two thirds of employees are not actively engaged. And I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but I really do think that organizations are not good about creating a vision that people want to buy into. And be a part of and then their cultures are inconsistent.

[00:23:53] Phil Gafka: They either don’t have a good one or they state a good one, but they don’t live it. Yeah. And they make all these exceptions. Everybody then just looking for their exception because everybody else gets away with theirs. So they’re not really true to what they say. 

[00:24:08] Steve Fretzin: When 

[00:24:08] Phil Gafka: you find organizations that say and do on a parallel line, that level of engagement goes way up.

[00:24:15] Phil Gafka: So 

[00:24:15] Steve Fretzin: when you, 

[00:24:15] Phil Gafka: when you’re 

[00:24:16] Steve Fretzin: there, well, okay. So you’re working with a company and you identify. These issues okay that they’re having and they come to you for your help what are the two or three things that you when you identify that these problems tell them and work with them on on a day to day basis to get them to this place where they can be successful and have kind of a harmonious business.

[00:24:38] Phil Gafka: We start with the first two things, really, really defining a vision and the vision is not something you’re doing today. It’s something you aspire to achieve. Okay. Like I’ve worked with a client, a firm that they were financial services and their vision was to impact a billion people. Not going to happen.

[00:24:59] Phil Gafka: That wasn’t the point. The point was everybody in that organization, every time they touched somebody, that was an impact. And they were just out to do is, and nothing, the vision said nothing about their financial services. Right. Or 

[00:25:12] Steve Fretzin: about, 

[00:25:12] Phil Gafka: or 

[00:25:13] Steve Fretzin: about the money that they were going to make or a goal that they were setting to hit.

[00:25:16] Steve Fretzin: It was. Exactly. Right. The thought is if they impacted enough people, they’ll get their share of business. Okay. So set a set a vision for the future, not a vision for a financial goal or for something that, that you want today. 

[00:25:30] Phil Gafka: And if you think you’re making it big, make it big. Okay. That’s what people will buy into this hope, this aspiration, being part of something versus just, yeah, we’re here to make money.

[00:25:40] Phil Gafka: Big deal. That’s not enough to move people’s souls and get them motivated. Then the other part is, again, without beating the dead horse, the culture side. Can you be clear about it? And you engage all of your people when you create this, we go through a process of, you know, getting, you know, as many of the players in the room and talking about the most important things and then whittling it down to the handful of most important concepts.

[00:26:07] Phil Gafka: It doesn’t mean other things go away. It just that’s mean, they’ll move up to the top, the most important things. And if you can commit to those most important things and do your daily everything with those most important things in mind. Now you’ve got people that are aligned. They’ve bought into this and it’s not just like picking a word like or a phrase.

[00:26:29] Phil Gafka: It’s us getting to a common definition. We have X number of people on our phone. We’re talking about, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna act respectful. We can’t have everybody with their own little definition of what respect is. We have to come to our definition of what we’re gonna use when we say respect.

[00:26:46] Phil Gafka: You get to that point. Now you really got a line, 

[00:26:50] Steve Fretzin: but he comes from the top down, meaning this isn’t like a group conversation to figure it out. It’s it’s the person that’s running the organization talking with you going through this. And then it’s it’s everyone needs to align 

[00:27:02] Phil Gafka: with that. That’s I think that’s a good starting point.

[00:27:05] Phil Gafka: But if you want people to buy in at a better level. You want to part of that conversation. Okay. That’s where I was going. Okay. Yeah. The leader may know ideally, but talking with your people, you may find that somebody has a little better idea and you incorporate that. But when you’re asking somebody for their input and you actually use it.

[00:27:26] Phil Gafka: What’s going to happen when you ask for their input again? They’re going to play along. So now you have this team thing going, where you’re, you’re asking, and you’re using the information, you’re incorporating the best. It’s not about being the title and my idea. It’s about the best idea and engagement of your people.

[00:27:48] Phil Gafka: And the more people that are playing at that level, the more successful you’re going to be. 

[00:27:53] Steve Fretzin: But I think this helps people that are running organizations, law firms in this case, and it helps employees who are working at law firms understand what they should be seeing or what maybe they’re not seeing.

[00:28:06] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, realizing whether or not it’s it, there’s a similar shared vision because you want to be maybe at a place where what you’re looking to get out of your life and your career and everything aligned with that organization. And if they don’t, and you can figure that out, listening to this conversation, Phil, right, there might be an opportunity to.

[00:28:26] Steve Fretzin: You know, get experience and, and move somewhere that maybe is more aligned. Or start your own and do it your way. Yeah. Well, I, I love that. I’m a huge fan of lawyers going out on their own and helping them, you know, get organized to, to do that in a way it’s never been easier. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m saying it’s never been easier.

[00:28:43] Steve Fretzin: Because of all the technology and automations and things that are happening and virtual assistants and, and you don’t need an office, there’s all kinds of great benefits to it. But again, that’s not for everybody. Not everybody wants that. Life, but it is a great option for for many people more now than ever.

[00:28:58] Steve Fretzin: So 

[00:28:59] Phil Gafka: we’ll be great. 

[00:29:00] Steve Fretzin: Yeah Hey Phil, listen, we got to wrap up and everything that you’ve shared I think has been so insightful and I just appreciate you and I appreciate you coming on the show Let’s wrap up with the infinite game your game changing book Simon Sinek coming to coming to battle again. This guy keeps coming up like not a, what is it like not a, what’s the, what’s the saying keeps coming up?

[00:29:20] Steve Fretzin: Like finish the sentence, 

[00:29:23] Phil Gafka: a rose, 

[00:29:25] Steve Fretzin: a 

[00:29:25] Phil Gafka: rose in the desert, maybe anyway, he’s, he’s amazing. I mean, I like this book because it really, you know, it hits at the heart of the map in a, in a street level kind of example, I’ve done some work with a career resource center, you know, do a little presentation and you say, okay, who here is looking for a job and everybody raises their hand.

[00:29:43] Phil Gafka: Okay. Thanks. And you say, okay, who here is looking for a career? They go, Ooh, I go, yeah, be careful of what you say you’re looking for, because you just might find. And that infinite game is, are you playing the short game? Were you playing the long game? And the long game is that vision that there’s no end.

[00:30:00] Phil Gafka: It’s not a place. It’s continual, continual improvement and continually going to achieve something large. And that’s what people will get excited about being part of. And so understanding what game are you, well. Does the organization, you know, talk big and do little or do they talk big and do big? Do they think innovatively?

[00:30:25] Phil Gafka: Do they take new ideas? Do they take chances or do they just talk the game and then take no chance? 

[00:30:32] Steve Fretzin: Well, excellent book recommendation there, everybody. The Infinite Game. Let’s take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, we’ve got PymCon coming up in September. If you’re a personal injury attorney and you want to have an amazing experience, listening to some of the top players in the world on stage and teach new marketing, do that.

[00:30:48] Steve Fretzin: Matic of course, helping with those automations for your law firm and getting staffed up this opportunity to delegate to professionals down in South America that can take a lot of work off your plate. Phil, if people wanna get in touch with you and they wanna, you know, find out more about your coaching and leap and all that, what’s the best way to reach you?

[00:31:07] Phil Gafka: It’s phil@leapcoaching.com or just website is leap coaching.com. That’s it. Thanks man every time 

[00:31:16] Steve Fretzin: every time we get together whether it’s on this podcast or just individually i was feel like i’m i leave smarter and better than i did when i got here so man i just appreciate you so much and sharing your wisdom and this is such an interesting.

[00:31:28] Steve Fretzin: I know as soon as you brought up the five generations i was like i jumped all over i was like yes let’s talk about that. Culture, you know, and all that. So thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Appreciate the time and the opportunity, Steve. You’ll be well. Oh, always, always. Yeah. Doing, doing well. Hey everybody.

[00:31:43] Steve Fretzin: Listen, whether again, you’re running a firm where you’re working at a firm or you’re looking to go on your own, you’re on your own, whatever, you know, culture eats motivation, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right. So think about not just building a law practice, but think about. How you’re going to build a team and how you’re going to build a culture that people want to be around and can enjoy and be loyal to all things leading to being that lawyer, someone confident, organized, and a skilled brain maker.

[00:32:09] Steve Fretzin: I worked my way towards it, Phil. Have a great week, everybody. Take care. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.

[00:32:19] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and information Today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.