Sonya Palmer: Strategies for Scaling, Hiring, and Marketing Success

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Sonya Palmer discuss:

• Keeping connections alive after meetings
• Growing teams and operations effectively
• Empowering women in law firms
• Using content and AI to grow practices

Key Takeaways:

• To avoid losing momentum after meetings, always establish a next step, whether scheduling a follow-up or agreeing on mutual actions that maintain the connection.
• A robust hiring process, including video interviews and task-based evaluations, ensures new hires align with company values and can meet performance standards.
• Women advancing in leadership roles bring invaluable diversity to law firms, fostering client trust and improving business outcomes by reflecting varied perspectives.
• Combining personal content strengths with tools like ChatGPT allows lawyers to efficiently generate scalable marketing materials that create lasting client engagement.

“Because in by being themselves and by being authentic, [women] have value….they don’t have to pretend to be like the men. They have their own unique value, just like men do.” —  Sonya Palmer

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/

Episode References: 

Personal Injury Mastermind Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/personal-injury-mastermind/id1501754955

Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509

About Sonya Palmer: Sonya Palmer, the voice behind LawHer, is a seasoned digital marketing expert and the SVP of Operations at Rankings.io, an Inc. 5000 SEO company for lawyers. Working closely with female attorneys at various career stages—many now firm owners—Sonya identified a critical gap: women were often trying to build their legal businesses alone, without visibility into successful models. Through LawHer, she aims to provide women in law the tools, insights, and community support needed to redefine success on their own terms.

Connect with Sonya Palmer:

Website: https://rankings.io/

Email: Sonya@rankings.io

Show: LawHer Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lawher/id1599413853

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonyapalmer/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody, before we get to the interview, want to just take a moment to do a Q and a with Scott from Austin, Texas. He is asking Steve, what’s the best method to follow up with people you had a good meeting with? Thank you, Scott, for the question. It’s pretty normal that you meet with people from an event that you have a coffee with, et cetera.

Maybe it’s a big love fest. That’s all great. And then like radio silence. So there’s a couple of things I’d recommend. Number one is anytime you have the opportunity to have a next step, you’re going to do something for somebody. They’re going to do something for you. And there’s a next step and there’s a meaningful way to follow up.

That’s one way to keep the movement going. The other is to actually schedule the next meeting. So you meet with someone and say, Hey, this was great, great meeting you. Maybe let’s get together again in a couple of weeks or a month and let’s do this again. And there might be some, some mutually beneficial contacts we can make for each other.

You want to come to this game with me, whatever it might be a social or a business thing. And just set it up on the spot for the next meeting. And that way you’ve got it set up and you don’t have to think twice about it. So just a couple of probably a dozen different ways that I’d recommend to my [00:01:00] clients, the way that I would handle, you know, keeping my finger on the pulse of what the next step would be.

So hopefully this was helpful. And again, if you guys have questions, just send them off to my email, steve at Fretzin. com. Thanks and enjoy the show, everybody.

Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey, everybody, welcome back to The Be That Lawyer with Fredson podcast. We are here for your entertainment pleasure and hopefully to help you be that lawyer confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker helping you grow your law practice. You know, I’ve got a very special guest here today. Sonia, how you doing?

You’re good. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I’m glad you’re here. So, you know, you and Chris Dreyer have been amazing [00:02:00] sponsors of the show and I don’t know that, you know, everyone knows what you guys are doing, especially I want to talk about the law, her podcast, and I want to just have you share all of your experience being in legal for so many years.

And I want to get into that. Of course, we have to start with our quote of the show because that’s kind of our jam. And this is a good one. This is one I haven’t seen yet. And I absolutely read it. I loved it. I read it twice. Here we go, everybody. If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.

So welcome to the show and then talk about that quote. You had a lot of different options for the quote and you gave me that one. So I want to pick your brain about it. 

Sonya Palmer: Yes, absolutely. I love this entire book, Radical Candor. Ken Scott. It’s a fantastic book, especially if you’re new to leadership or new to management, but so much of my role is an operations lead, scaling business, scaling processes, scaling systems, but beyond that, it’s scaling people.

And I have tried to [00:03:00] adopt a lot of what I saw with Chris and Steven and how they were leaders for me. And I feel like we have adopted this anti micro management philosophy. And when you’re a small business, being in the weeds, rolling up your sleeves, doing the work, that’s just part of it, right? But as you grow, those checklists, those go collect wood, go chop wood, That starts to feel like red tape or bureaucracy, and these things that were supposed to help you grow and scale are now thwarting you.

So I always try to just go back to, like, hire the right people, make sure that you trust them, give them that vision, that goal, that direction, and then send them on their way. So this always reminds me of that. To just paint that big broad picture as often as possible and try, try to stay out of their business.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. It’s interesting. Even this morning, someone had mentioned to me this story about, you know, in [00:04:00] Rome, there was a ton of people that it takes to build a cathedral and there was, you know, everyone’s got their different roles and there was someone laying brick and he was asked, you know, is this your job laying brick?

guys. I’m not laying brick. I’m building a cathedral. So it’s like totally bought into the end game of what this was all about and what each individual’s role is to accomplish that goal versus you’re a nobody lay brick and, and you’ll see it tomorrow, which, you know, nobody’s going to get behind that like they will at the vision.

Sonya Palmer: Yeah. And I think what we do, I think when you’re building a business building a law firm, The work that we do is important. I think that when you do paint that picture and you do have those goals It’s very very easy to buy into this. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah, that’s what we’re doing And I think there’s a lot of leaders out there that are so in the weeds It’s so difficult to figure out the messages what the path is and how to convey that down and so they end up you know, that’s why you know coaches and training programs and all this stuff [00:05:00] exists because there’s such a lack of knowledge and education in the legal space to teach these kinds of skills And so there’s books you can buy but there’s also a lot of you know We’ve had a lot on the show of these coaches who focus on leadership and vision and helping people delegate etc, etc So 

Sonya Palmer: 100 percent 

Steve Fretzin: sonja palmer.

You’re the vp of operations at rankings. io You’re the host of the law her podcast. I’m just thrilled that you’re here And give everybody a little background because we’re going to get into the weeds on so many different aspects of growing and scaling and developing a law practice and a business. I want to make sure everyone knows where, who they’re hearing from.

Sonya Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll try to keep this short. 

Steve Fretzin: You have about an hour, so just lay it out. 

Sonya Palmer: Excellent. I had a photography business that I started and trying to market it and trying to get new clients. I ended up doing more marketing for small businesses. People weren’t coming to me for photography. They were coming to me like, who did your website?

Who did your logo? You know? And so I [00:06:00] ended up working with a lot of small businesses. I put my entire town’s main street online and I really had a passion for that. I have a soft spot for small businesses. My dad owned a small business and that is something that I just became very passionate about. Got very good at it in those early days of Google and search.

It was just fun. You could so easily get that organic search up, but through that, I worked for a couple of agencies and then happenstance, I needed a job, applied for it, and Chris found me. And I started as an SEO specialist and I, Chris was one of the first people that like, Hey, you’re pretty good at your job.

What else can you do? You know, and just kept giving me more to do and I loved that. So. Eventually became an ops lead, processes, systems, checklists, quality control, how can we serve our clients the best, and have been with him now for almost nine years. 

Steve Fretzin: Wow. 

Sonya Palmer: Growing the [00:07:00] business, and and yeah, and he had started PIM, he’s such an expert in the marketing, personal injury marketing, that he had started this podcast, and it was thriving.

We were just, we We’re getting really cool guests and we just kind of noticed that nobody was really telling the unique story that women have in this industry, particularly women who are trying to start their own firms. There’s a giant gap. And so we started LawHer to just highlight those women in the industry who are doing killing it, basically.

It’s been fantastic. It’s been wonderful. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. It’s a phenomenal show. I’ve enjoyed it and have recommended and referred it to a number of the women that I work with. And, you know, it’s interesting when I started coaching lawyers back in 2008 and nine, I was really working with women because they were sort of handed to me by the firm, and it was typically 20 percent of the group I would get.

And then when I started working only with individual lawyers, it somehow still [00:08:00] stayed around 20%, 10 to 20 percent of my clients were women. Now it’s probably close to 40, and I’m just seeing, you know, a massive amount of women flooding into law school and flooding into firms and running their own shows and getting more marketing and rain making chops than the men.

And I’m just seeing this sort of conversion happen. And I couldn’t be happier. And the mindset of women of, Oh, well, I’m in the friend zone and I don’t feel comfortable talking to people. No, they’re figuring out methods to get through and build their own stuff. Really cool. Yeah. 

Sonya Palmer: When we started LawHer, the percentage was, I think, 18 percent of women.

We’re partners in law firms and just in the two, three years that we’ve been recording that is now 22. So we’re definitely on the right track. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And then going out on their own, right? And starting their own firms. It’s like a record number of women going out and saying, look, I don’t need to, you know, work with these men or I don’t need to, you know, be a part of this firm and take orders.

I can [00:09:00] run my own show. It’s not rocket science. 

Sonya Palmer: Absolutely. I really encourage it too. I encourage as many people to own small business as possible, but I do think that the pandemic changed things for a lot of women. Changed things for people in general, obviously. Yeah. But I think going digital, the tools, AI, all of that has made it easier.

And. Flexibility, the autonomy. I don’t think people are afraid of hard work. They just that Monday through Friday nine to five is really hard to commit to when you have kids, when you have a family, when you’re trying to take care of older parents, whatever sort of is happening in your life. And they were willing to sort of take that chance, start their own business so that they would have that agency and that autonomy over their own schedules.

So, yeah, it’s really, really amazing. 

Steve Fretzin: And why is it so important for women to step up into leadership roles, whether that’s on their own or that’s within a mid market big firm? 

Sonya Palmer: Really great question. I think, I don’t think that it’s like, it’s a nice thing to [00:10:00] do or it’s the politically correct thing to do.

I think it’s what’s best for the business, especially within law firms, because I think Offer them serve all different types of people and clients, different backgrounds, different perspectives, ways of life, different cultures. And when you can mirror that on your own staff and on your own leadership team so that those same perspectives are being considered and thought about, it just helps you take better care of your clients, which I think is the foundation of any successful business is how well you can serve your clients and how well you can produce results for them or results.

So I do think that, again, I don’t even think that it’s, Oh, it’s the right thing to do because it is, but I think it’s what helps grow the business are those different. Diverse perspectives 

Steve Fretzin: in, I mean, outside of pandemic, what I’m feeling is a desire from women to explore leadership roles, to step up and realize, you know, it’s not [00:11:00] a man’s world and there’s opportunities for everybody.

They’re feeling either more on level playing field than maybe in the past where like it was the glad handing old white guy that the golf club that was buying drinks. And that was like, what was sort of the Rainmaker image and now. I think women are realizing that’s sort of done, or kind of done, and like, you can network in a more traditional sense, you can market in a more traditional sense, and get everything and more than what, you know, other men are doing in the industry.

Sonya Palmer: Yes. A hundred percent. I, bibe fell was on LA her, and there’s a, you’ll hear women say this all the time. I used to say, fake it till you make it. You know, I’ll pretend, I’ll go on the golf course and dah, dah, dah, dah. And Bibe said, no, be yourself. Yeah. Be authentic. And I think that resonated so much. And I do think we, women are taking that advice because in by being themselves and by being authentic, they have, there’s value there.

They don’t have to pretend to be like the men. They have their own unique value just like men do, [00:12:00] and I think that’s definitely, and I do think, again, the pandemic has, what was once local is now global, and you have so many more options for the people that you want to work with, that sort of those stereotypes are less prominent or less powerful than they used to be, and people want options.

You know, if I’m a mom who’s been injured, I might want to talk to a mom, you know? And I think that’s, the pandemic really opened up all those channels. We went online, we realized there’s a world way beyond. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, absolutely. And there are a lot of lawyers listening to the show, many of whom are solo small firm and there’s some big firm, you know, folks, individuals, everybody’s motivated to grow that they wouldn’t be listening to the show if they weren’t.

But I know that there’s some confusion between business development, marketing, branding. And where to spend the money because SEO isn’t for everybody, pay per clicks isn’t for everybody, social media is, should be [00:13:00] for most people but maybe isn’t. So where should, you know, lawyers that want to build their law practice or their firm, where should they start thinking about where to invest time and energy and money into marketing?

Sonya Palmer: Wherever they feel comfortable. I think the brand will develop. I think a lot of attorneys when they’re starting, get really focused on their logo and their brand and what’s it say. And I think you’ve got to start somewhere. Content is king. It always has been, it always will be. It’s just changing. So I think if you’re an attorney, you really like to write, write blogs, write articles, write news, write whatever you can.

If you’re comfortable in front of a camera, hire a videographer. Follow you around, okay? Just create that kind of content. A podcast is a great way to create content, either start your own or get, find someone that can get you on those podcasts. Generate that [00:14:00] content any way that you can. You can put that on your website, you can put that on your social, and it compounds.

You have that content forever. Yeah, it might need updated. There might be some evergreen stuff that you have to pluck out, but that it only multiplies. And I think that if people go, I don’t want to go on TikTok. I don’t want to be on camera. That’s fine. You don’t have to. It’s effective. But you can write really great articles that Google will pick up.

You can go and talk on Reddit. Offer your expertise. So whatever you really feel like your strength is, start there and then hire people to fill those gaps in, right, to do the stuff that’s sort of trending or popular or producing the highest ROI. 

Steve Fretzin: And there’s a lot of do it yourself stuff, you know, especially with chat GBT.

I mean, I was talking to a client yesterday, he’s in the divorce space and we’re like, where do we get started? I’m like, you know. Take what are the top 10 issues that you see every day? What are the top 10 questions that you get as a family law attorney? Put them into chat GBT It’s gonna give you 10 answers, right?

Make sure they’re right and then each of those [00:15:00] points could be made into a post So you got 10, you know 10 posts 10 weeks doing what that took five minutes? And is that going to be the same as writing original content or putting yourself on camera? No, it’s not the same, but it’s, we just, sometimes we just need to get started and get the car rolling and then you can start speeding up.

Sonya Palmer: Absolutely. I think for as much talk as AI and chat GPT gets, I actually think it’s being underutilized. 

Steve Fretzin: Well, yeah, for sure. It’s being underutilized and it’s, there’s a lot of fear around new and there’s a lot of fear around. Is it going to take what I’m saying and like, you know, expose me or is it, you know, going to be picked up?

Like, are, is Google picking up articles that are being generated by AI and not giving them the same attention or traction? It’s like if my teenager decides to use chat GBT to write his paper, you know, he’s going to get found out at school and he’s going to get in trouble. So I think people are nervous about using new technology like this.

Sonya Palmer: Yeah, absolutely, and I do think there are dangers within AI, don’t get me wrong. I [00:16:00] worry more about privacy protection than anything else, versus it taking jobs of creators or artists or something like that. You have to do your due diligence, especially within the legal field, to make sure that what it is saying is accurate.

But if you talk to Chad GPT the way you might a coach or something, and you use it to develop the problem. Hey, I had a case, this is what happened. This is what the client was kind of telling me. This is what I want the goal to be. Things like that can spark inspiration and just take what it gives you and put it back in.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah. I think eventually you can get something that’s unique. 

Steve Fretzin: You just have to refine it. That’s the thing people don’t realize. You put in a prompt, it’s going to give you something good. Then you say, Hey, do this again, but, and then add what you want, you know, my voice, or you want it done for small firms, not mid market or whatever it might be that you want to temper it.

And it just keeps pumping better and better and better information that you can then copy and paste and utilize how you see fit. But it’s kind of a no brainer. But again, [00:17:00] what’s nice about social media from a marketing perspective, it’s really leveled the playing field where it used to just be the big firm and the big money people could do something and you couldn’t.

And now I think if you can get into it and whether you delegate or do it yourself, like you’re going to, you can get a lot more traction without a big budget. 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah. Sarah Williams called it the great equalizer. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I 

Sonya Palmer: think that was a perfect definition for it. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I said recently, I wrote an article for Above the Law, and it’s like you’re either in the game or you’re sitting on the sidelines.

You know, you make, either way, you, you know, you make a choice of what you want to do. And it’s not complicated to learn, you know, find me, find a friend. Someone can help you get, you know, half an hour, get comfortable enough to use it on a regular basis. 

Sonya Palmer: Absolutely. Ignore the bells and whistles for now.

Just start somewhere. Just build something. 

Steve Fretzin: With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t [00:18:00] deliver.

Get more rankings. Get cases. And schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today. Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here. Man. I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking what’s the rainmakers round table? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity.

Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop? So, I’ve got an angle I want to take this conversation. It’s a little different than where we’ve been.

It’s around people. You’re dealing with a lot of people. You’re delegating. You’re scaling. You know, we’re talking about scaling. You know, from one person bringing in their first, you know, associate to the amount of work that’s being pumped [00:19:00] at lawyers right now in the U. S. and their inability to get it done because work isn’t being pushed down.

It’s actually being pushed up in some instances because they can’t find talent. So what are some things that you have seen in your time working in legal to develop talent and help scale talent, scale people, however we want to look at that? 

Sonya Palmer: You have to think about hiring. Way earlier than you think that you need to.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. 

Sonya Palmer: Once you feel the need to have people, it’s too late. I think the first thing, any firm agency business is what is your hiring process? Who’s going to own that? Who’s going to do that? Most of the time in the early days, it’s going to be the owner. I think that’s great. Having that process of how you’re going to find talent, hire them, retain them, and then termination process as well.

So often, I think. Attorneys and leaders in the early stages of businesses, they hold on to people way too long. And just having [00:20:00] those processes in place will take the feeling, will take the emotion out of it. And that will significantly help scale. And then I think with leaders having that vision, what are your actual core values?

Not the pretty things you want to post on the website, but what do you live by? Establish that stuff. You can change it. Right? Like, it’s gonna evolve, but establish that, hire the people who are going to live by that the same way that you are, right? Use those to find those people, and then yeah, let people do their jobs.

Get people that you trust, paint that picture for them, and then send them on their way. 

Steve Fretzin: But do you have an example of either a hiring or an onboarding process or element of a process that you do that you recommend? 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah, we do one way video interviews. So if someone applies, we immediately send them three to five questions that they answer on camera.

It’s like [00:21:00] this. It’s just them. The questions are hard. They’re pretty generic, to be honest. Hey, what do you like? Walk us through your resume. But I have found it’s a very powerful check because it’s a lot of word. And if they will do it, they really want to work here. Like they’re gonna, all right, I’m gonna put myself out, remove myself from my comfort zone.

I’m gonna talk to this camera for 10 minutes. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sonya Palmer: And just that sort of like gumption is enough for me, probably then to interview them. You know, if they don’t make a fool of themselves in that one way, just that they did it, that they want to work at rankings and we’ve been doing it for years and it has helped you.

It’s nice. It’s like a recruiting tool too, because I can send it to Chris, he can provide feedback and you don’t have people in interviews and meetings all the time and then we go back, oh hey, we need to hire for this position and we’re thinking, oh, remember that person? And we can pull their video interview up and show it to the new parties, the new hiring managers.

It’s, it’s something that we’ve kept for a [00:22:00] long time. It’s worked really, really well for us. 

Steve Fretzin: Okay. And then before you actually make a hire, do you have them do any kind of like, let’s say their interview? You know, some people interview. Well, Right? And some people interview well and it’s kind of, you know, they’re just good at that piece, but they’re not necessarily great at their job.

Do you give them a project to do or anything to kind of test the waters before you pull the trigger? 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah. And we typically pay them for it too. Okay. 

Steve Fretzin: So they’ll 

Sonya Palmer: enter into some sort of pilot or freelance something to test them. Writers is probably where this is the most applicable. You know, when you’re going to write at.

rankings, we’re looking for very qualified individuals. And so we put them through a pretty rigorous, we need three to five samples, but we pay them for 

Steve Fretzin: it. So I love that, but then you can test them out. So it comes back and it’s absolute trash, you know, wow, we just saved ourselves from this. And I think for lawyers too, that, you know, giving a lawyer something to do to work on a brief, to take [00:23:00] something and demonstrate that they can execute, it comes back and it’s loaded with grammatical errors, or it’s just, it’s just not what you had asked for.

That’s going to save you from a hire that could have been an absolute disaster. So I think there’s so many things to kind of protect yourself to make a good hire because you have to do it quickly, right? It’s like quick to hire, slow to fire, low to hire, quick to fire, sorry, rewind. And so having a good process for the hiring, then how about on boarding and helping to train?

Because I think what happens in other instances, you do a great job on the hire. And then you go, there’s your desk, there’s your phone, we’ll start throwing work your way, and they’re like, head explode, you know, visual. 

Sonya Palmer: 30, 60, 90, every person that comes onto the team has a 30, 60, 90 day ramp. We usually allow them to influence it.

So we will have a standard for whatever the position is, a specialist, manager, director, what does their first 30 days look like? 60, 90, but we allow, like, what do you think your [00:24:00] 30, 60, 90 should be? And that will tell us a lot about the individual that we’re working with. And I think everyone’s sort, I don’t know that we state this, maybe we need to more, but if you get to the end of that 90 days and it’s not, we’re going part ways, right?

There’s no use in sort of dragging that out. I don’t know that’s ever happened. Usually everybody exceeds expectations. But yes, have some type of ramp, even if it’s just like a generic, understand our communication software. Right? No, we’re just a very simple, basic thing that you can add. Super important.

Those percentages. KPIs too, having those established, an idea of what they’re going to look like for different roles within a firm. Also, extremely important. You can measure that as you grow and you don’t talk to so and so every day, you can go and look and see they’re on the right track. 

Steve Fretzin: And so I know I had asked you in, in sort of the off interview about some challenges you had in the first time you fired [00:25:00] someone, it sounds like it didn’t go so great, but I mean, I’d love to hear what that experience was and then also what your, how your company does it now and what you could teach lawyers about.

Removing someone that isn’t really a fit. 

Sonya Palmer: Terrible. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

Sonya Palmer: It was hard. But it’s easy and fun. It’s not any easy now. I’ve never relished it, you know? 

Steve Fretzin: No. 

Sonya Palmer: I used to believe that like everyone could be rehabilitated, you know? And not long into being a manager and being a leader, I realized that that was not true.

I think for me, an underperforming employee is a liability in a lot of different ways, especially to small firms. It’s not just that they are underperforming. You know, they’re stealing from the company. They’re stealing from you. They are robbing the good employees around them because they’re the ones that are picking up the slack, right?

It’s the people that are now given a hundred and ten a hundred and twenty One hundred and fifty [00:26:00] percent because someone’s not showing up and that made it much easier on their behalf This person’s gotta go 

Steve Fretzin: and that’s what’s the exit on that? Like what’s the I mean the brief conversation? How is that set up so that it’s because it’s it’s hurting people around them.

It’s hurting the business You Lawyers, to your point, are dragging this out way too long because that person is doing some work and they don’t want that work to fall on them. They don’t have anybody lined up. 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah. I always want to make room for personal things. People go through stuff. That happens. Good performers are going to go through things.

So I try to foster an environment where those good employees that are currently struggling Can come to me and be like, Hey I’m struggling. Or I need to take the day. I need to take the week and we’re going to figure that out. You cool. We’ll cover it. You two weeks PTO. You’re gone. It’s cool. It’s great to really try to work with good employees who are going through something like that’s different.

But then I, I’m going to [00:27:00] go back to Kim Scott’s book, I see it, I’m saying something. If there’s a weird comment that happens in Slack or somebody’s quality is dipped, I’m pulling them into a conversation. Hey, what’s going on? I want to acknowledge it immediately, both so that we can address it and flush it out and figure it out, but that they know I’m seeing it.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

Sonya Palmer: And then we do have a formal process, it’s a verbal warning. Then there’s a PIP, Performance Improvement Plan, usually 30 days, they don’t succeed through that, we terminate. 

Steve Fretzin: And all expectations have been laid out, so it’s not a surprise to anybody and you’re keeping an eye on them over the 30 to see, you know, are they actually trying to achieve or are they just looking for a job at that point because they know the writing is on the wall, right?

So you got to pay attention for the 30 days. 

Sonya Palmer: You don’t want people to feel like a coconut can fall on their heads, right? They want, you want them to see it coming miles and miles and miles away. 

Steve Fretzin: Well, and also, I [00:28:00] mean, maybe for law firms, it’s a little different in the sense that if they’re managing clients and there’s things that, you know, you may have to get taken back to you because letting them go when they still have all these relationships or things going on could be sticky too.

So think about it in your own situation and take what you can from it. But everything you’ve shared, Sonia, has been amazing. So thank you so much. Let’s roll on to, now this is going to be, we’re calling this segment Shameless Promotion, but it’s for a good cause, everybody, because Between rankings io and the law her podcast.

There’s a lot of value for you or for people, you know So let’s talk about the pym podcast first and then we can move on to the other. 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. So pym is chris dryers podcast And he focuses on Personal injury marketing. I think marketing and PI is probably the most competitive. I think I’ve heard that car insurance is the only other term that’s the most competitive.

So, if you can do marketing and PI, you can do anything. 

Steve Fretzin: Pure flow from progressive. [00:29:00] Right? There’s only one thing. 

Sonya Palmer: And Chris is the best at it. He just has this amazing knack and understands this. The landscape and the industry so well and he’s interviews a guest every week. We’ve had some really, really incredible guests, some really, really powerhouse attorneys.

It’s a, if you are wanting to grow your own business or be a part of a thriving firm, it is a must listen. So yeah, Chris is fun too. He’s a great host. 

Steve Fretzin: Yes, he is. I’ve been on the show. It’s been, it’s always a hoot and I’ve had him on mine. It’s, we always have a good time together. And then let’s talk a little bit about Rankings.

io and then the LawHer podcast. 

Sonya Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. So Rankings is the company that I, it’s my day job. I only moonlight as a podcaster. Right, 

Steve Fretzin: right. 

Sonya Palmer: But yeah, we are committed to growing personal injury law firms. We specialize in search engine marketing in the legal industry, trying to create cases and leads for lawyers.

We are obsessive about it. And [00:30:00] then yeah, LawHer is the podcast that I host. It is dedicated to women in the legal industry, not just PI, but all aspects, all places. It is a unique journey that there’s definitely a camaraderie within. And we feature women who are trying to grow, trying to manage, maintain life.

It’s we get to talk a lot more about business, about mindset, about families. Had some really, really, really good guests. And season three is coming out in February. 

Steve Fretzin: Nice. Awesome. And I just also want to just give a quick plug to the Rainmakers Roundtable, the peer advisory groups that I’m running.

Again, if you’re a managing partner, law firm leader, equity partner, doing a million plus, wannabe. Surrounded by other successful attorneys to talk shop on a regular basis You’re gonna want to check out my website Fretzin comm and learn more about that. Happy to have you audit or talk to me Directly.

Thank you so much. Sonia. This has been a blast. I knew it [00:31:00] was like you’re just such a consummate professional Between your podcast and the work you do at Rankings I knew this was gonna be great. And, and again, hopefully everybody got some great takeaways and things that are gonna help them in their pursuit of excellence and growing a law practice.

So thank you so much. 

Sonya Palmer: Yes. Thank you. 

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Really my pleasure. And thank you everybody for spending time with Sonia and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Fredson podcast. You guys have every opportunity in the world to, you know, grow and scale and live the best lawyer’s life that you can. You just have to consider that you don’t have to do it all yourself, right?

There’s people out there that can support you. There’s books and other things that you can utilize to learn. The skills that are going to get you to the next level. So be that lawyer, everybody. Confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker take care of be safe. Be well talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice, visit Steve’s [00:32:00] website, Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out Tube.