Michael Cohen: The Lawyer’s Guide to Leadership, Equity, and Career Satisfaction

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Cohen discuss:

• Strategies for building and maintaining a successful law practice
• The role of leadership and personal branding in legal careers
• Overcoming challenges and finding fulfillment in the legal profession
• The importance of authenticity, advocacy, and adaptability in professional growth

Key Takeaways:

• When hiring, be financially prepared, follow a “slow to hire, quick to fire” approach, and seek candidates whose goals align with long-term retention.
• Building a career aligned with passion may require sacrifices, such as taking non-traditional opportunities and traveling extensively to develop expertise and a brand.
• Law firms can foster equity by diversifying associates’ work assignments through structured work tracking systems to prevent pigeonholing.
• Writing about niche cases or personal interests in law not only builds expertise but also enhances your visibility and credibility as a thought leader.

“Each and every one of us is dealing with stuff that nobody else knows about… if we can just understand that fundamental truth and be kind along the way, this whole thing gets an awful lot easier to deal with.” —  Michael Cohen

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

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Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/

Episode References: 

Let Them Lead: Unexpected Lessons in Leadership from America’s Worst High School Hockey Team by John Bacon: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Them-Lead-Unexpected-Leadership/dp/0358533260

About Michael Cohen: Michael Cohen is a Partner in Duane Morris’ Employment, Labor, Immigration, and Benefits Practice Group, focusing on employment law training and counseling in Philadelphia, where he conducts over 200 trainings annually. Inspired by his mother, who fought and won a landmark Supreme Court case for working women after being fired for her pregnancy with Michael, he has a passion for education and challenges. Michael is also a devoted husband, father, travel softball coach, and avid supporter of Philadelphia and University of Michigan sports.

Connect with Michael Cohen: 

Website: http://www.duanemorris.com/attorneys/michaelscohen

Email: mcohen@duanemorris.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/michaelscohen12

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody, before we get to the show today, I want to just take a moment to do a Q and a, from one of our wonderful listeners. This is Jennifer from Dallas, Texas. And she’s asking, well, she says she loves my show. I get a lot of that. That’s a, that’s not a bad thing. I, but here’s a question. Any advice for a solo looking to hire her first associate?

Oh, wow. I definitely have some advice for you. I’ll give you three things real quick off the top of my head. Number one, make sure you’re financially ready for that. Know that you’ve got the money in the bank. You’re ready to invest back into your firm. That’s number one. Number two is the rule of thumb is always slow to hire, quick to fire.

Meaning you can’t just hire the first person you meet. You need to put them through a rigorous assessment and interview process, talking to anyone that knows them to make sure that they’re a great fit, that they’re synergistic with your firm. And number three is trying to find out like if their goals align with yours if they’re just looking to use you for a year or two and then get out and go do something else that may not be best to really find someone that looking for a home and someone that you can lead and teach and [00:01:00] advise and that you think may have the opportunity to stay with you longer term turnover sort of the beast that.

We’re all afraid of. So let’s try to figure out how we can keep people higher and retain longterm. So there’s a couple of thoughts for you, Jennifer, good luck to you and everybody enjoy the show.

Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Branson, we’ll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Branson.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin Podcast. We are here twice a week to rock and roll and help you be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker. Some big changes, you know, 2025 is already upon us and we’ve got to remember to plan and execute on our BD. This show is going to be a big part of your [00:02:00] year.

I’m going to be continuing to bring on amazing guests that are going to give you ideas, tips, secrets, takeaways, things that are going to help you to just rock and roll and be really be great with your marketing and business development, time management. So today’s no different. I got Michael Wade in the wings.

How you doing, Michael? I’m great, Steve. How are you? Doing all right. No complaints. Had a great year. 2024, 2025 is off to a great start doing more international stuff, which I love You know, trying out, you know, working with lawyers in different countries is kind of fun and interesting. And let’s just jump in and get to it.

We’ve got a great quote of the show. Continue with that. This is a Robin Williams. I’m a big Robin Williams fan. I just, you know, I grew up with him right in the eighties and all that. And now he’s just such a big part of my life growing up that, you know, I just, you know, I know he battled a lot of demons.

We really didn’t know about that until sort of near the end, but here’s this quote.

Michael Cohen: Yeah. No, no. Go right ahead. What’s, what’s your take? No, I’m not one of the absolute brilliant people ever to perform on a stage. You know, my wife and I say all the time, you know, you can be brilliant and not funny, but to be as funny as he was, you have to be an incredibly [00:03:00] intelligent and observant human being of the human condition.

And he, he was just I think without peer.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just so quick. But then there’s this bullet that he gives out. That’s just. So spot on. It’s a little mind blowing. So here it is. Everyone you meet is fighting a battle. You know, nothing about be kind always. So welcome to the show. And then why that quote of all the quotes you could have chosen for today.

It’s the

Michael Cohen: quote that I’ve heard. And I think it’s been said by many. The one that I saw attributed was to, as you mentioned, Steve Robin Williams, and it has become my North star. It is a fundamental fact of life. It is a concept with which we are all familiar and that we all understand to be true and that far, far, far too many of us keep buried in the back under all the crap that we deal with on a day to day basis.

And in my speaking with leaders on a day to day basis, in my conversations I have with attorneys, it’s something. That I impress upon them as much as I possibly can to put in the front of mind, because the [00:04:00] reality is each and every one of us, we both, certainly everyone we know, certainly everybody on this planet is dealing with stuff that nobody else knows about.

It is, it meaningfully impacts their day to day. And if can just understand that, as I mentioned, to be a fundamental truth and we can be kind along the way, this whole thing gets an awful lot easier to deal with.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And we also don’t realize when people are, you know, dumping their garbage on us that it, that, you know, we take it personally, like they’re dumping their garbage on us and it’s, it’s on us.

And really it’s what, it’s what they’re dealing with. Right?

Michael Cohen: Most of the time. Sure. I mean, basic psychology and that garbage in whatever form it comes sometimes it just as a leader, as somebody who’s trying to generate a, a, Profitable existence. One of the most important things we can do is just shut up and listen, you know, in terms of, and then take cues from what it is that person’s dumping.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think we have to observe not only what people are saying, but their body language and their eye contact [00:05:00] and the whole, the whole situation. But anyway, I think that’s going to be a great lead into our conversation, but let’s take a step back, everybody. This is Michael Cohn. He’s a partner at Dwayne Morris has one of the most interesting backgrounds and currently what you do is so unique in the legal space.

I think everybody would love to hear your background and leading up to what you do today.

Michael Cohen: Sure. Thanks. I’d be thrilled to give you a little bit of a glimpse. I have worked in several large law firms, AMLA 50, AMLA 100 law firms. I’ve always been an employment lawyer on the defense side.

Started my career doing nothing but employment litigation defense. Represented companies when they were sued for things like harassment, sued for things like discrimination, wage and hour laws. And while there are people that absolutely love the litigation practice, I was definitely not one of those.

And really became frustrated and had the Sunday scaries and did not enjoy my existence on a day to day basis. And When I was a mid level associate, I started doing a little bit of training. I had a boss who was in a [00:06:00] very real way, a unicorn whose office I went into and said to him, I’m not happy.

I don’t like what I’m doing. I’m not a baby, and I’m not a wimp, and I understand that there are going to be things with which we all deal day to day that we don’t love, but I remember saying to him, I can’t do this for the next 40 years of my life. I just can’t. And to, you know, his credit, and with my Unending gratitude.

We had a conversation and I had just started doing some trainings. And he said to me, Mike, look, you seem to have some ability to do these trainings, clearly your greatest skill is your ability to connect with people. I’m going to make you, and this was in a large loft kind of deal that just doesn’t get made by people like Jim Redeker, who recently retired, who unfortunately just don’t exist that much anymore.

And what Jim said to me was. I’m going to give you billable credit for non billable work. And I remember thinking, I’m sorry, what now? How’s that? [00:07:00] And he said, there’s going to be some kind, we’re going to create some kind of a method by which we do this. And it’s going to be tapped. But I want you to find that thing about what you are most passionate, which appears to be this training.

And he said to me then, and I was, I don’t know, 30 years old at the time. 28 years old at the time. I want you to become a brand. And I said, okay, sure. You know, that’s a great idea. I’m going to become a brand. You know what that means? Yeah. I’m McDonald’s. Yeah. What I heard was I’m not going to have to do litigation too much longer.

I can start pursuing this training career and he’s going to give me this credit for work that I ordinarily wouldn’t get credit for. And he said, but here’s the quid pro quo. Here’s what you have to do in exchange. And what he said was you can’t say no. So if some small trade organization outside of a small town, outside of a small town, outside of Salt Lake City, Utah calls you and says, we want you to come in and talk about some [00:08:00] esoteric provision of OSHA, you’re on a plane.

And that was what I ended up doing, and it was transformative to my career because I was able, I always wanted to be a teacher, Steve. My mom was, both my parents are psychologists, but my mom started as a teacher. My dad, while he was a psychologist, was a professor at a university. I’ve always wanted to teach and this actually enabled me.

In a different context to become that teacher I had always wanted to become, and that has taken more forms as I’ve gotten older. I’m a softball coach, a trainer, an educator, and have the ability to use these skills that Jim allowed me to foster as much as, as I was able to in to what has become my job and a job that.

Steve Fretzin: I just love, I just love it. Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. And I know a number of employment, I work with a ton of employment attorneys and many of them are, you know, looking for trainings and they’re doing that. [00:09:00] And to imagine doing that full time is, it’s, it’s, I don’t know if that’s for everybody, but it sounds like, it sounds like a pretty much a dream job and not to mention the miles I’m sure you get.

Michael Cohen: Well, listen, look, I mean, and it’s not full time, I am still a practicing lawyer. As I joke with people when I’m on the road and I’m on the road a fair amount, that’s what nights and weekend weekends are for is trying to do that other legal work. But yeah, I mean, 95 percent of my time, I am just absolutely thrilled doing what it is I get to do on a day to day basis and impacting people in a way that I think is a little bit different.

A normal year for me is 200, 225 trainings a year. And it’s not just the meat and potatoes employment law stuff. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve been able to, Very what it is about which I speak and selfishly, I’ve started to talk more about things that interest me, mental health, implicit bias, leadership principles, and I just, I love it.

Steve Fretzin: But Michael, we, you found yourself in a very unique situation and I just want to reach, have you reach out to the attorneys listening that maybe [00:10:00] aren’t finding that type of joy in their practice. Why aren’t lawyers? finding joy in the work they do and how do they flip a switch or how do they work towards being happy and joyful as an attorney.

Michael Cohen: Living your life in six minute increments is not anything anybody loves doing, right? I’ve never met a lawyer in the 28 years, 29 years that I’ve been practicing law where somebody said, I love keeping time. It’s my favorite part of my job. It’s tedious and it’s difficult. And for some people, they think I can’t believe I’m being evaluated on how much time I bill as opposed to how good I am on a day to day basis.

completely understand those kinds of concerns. And for me, it was finding that thing that I was passionate about. Finding that area. And those areas exist. I didn’t know becoming a trainer is something I could do as a lawyer in a big law firm. [00:11:00] And I was able to, once I had permission to do so, really run with it.

And it required a great deal of sacrifice. Make no bones about it. I have associates coming up to me all the time. I want to do what you do. And I say to them, I don’t blame you. What I do is awesome. What I do is great. It is super fun, but you’re seeing 25 years in, right? You’re not seeing when my daughters who are now 21 and 17.

Were little babies crying when I would leave again for three days and my wife who’s just a machine And without whom I could not do any of this was single parenting with little kids because I was on the road so much so But she was also around when I was doing the litigation And couldn’t stand my professional existence So it’s finding that thing or those things and even if it’s in small snippets at the beginning That gives you joy or brings you satisfaction or facilitates happiness in some way.

It looks so different for so many people. [00:12:00] Yeah. But I think what happens sometimes with lawyers is we lose to a degree a willingness to take risk or at some level in entrepreneurship. Overwhelmingly, people that get into, we’re dealing with type A personalities who Generally are not risk takers, and I am certainly among those people.

I am not a risk taker but I found myself in a situation where my professional existence, which is most of my waking hours. Was devoid of joy and it was either take this chance or go find something else. Yeah, it wasn’t gonna work any other way

Steve Fretzin: I mean one way but one way out of it Michael that I’m working on every day is I think there’s lawyers who?

Enjoy the high level work. They don’t enjoy the grunt work of the grunt legal work That should be delegated and so bringing in more business and working with better clients and higher profile clients And then being able to delegate that work down where you’re just [00:13:00] focused on the relationships and going out and meeting great people and maybe doing less of the grunt work and more of the high profile stuff.

And that may lead to speaking that may lead to podcasting that may lead to other activities that aren’t in the grind. I’m not saying that’s for everybody, but I have found that that does loosen things up for many lawyers.

Michael Cohen: I completely agree. But what I think embedded in that kind of notion is your willingness to let go a little.

You have to trust other people. And I think that lack of trust comes from several different places. One, you’ve gotten burned in the past. You’ve had associates, you’ve had other people who were. Doing the work for you or assisting where it just didn’t go as well as planned. And, you know, my question to people who respond that way is, well, what were you doing in terms of managing it along the way?

Another part of it is, I think. There’s a self importance sometimes. And sometimes we have to do a better job of getting out of our own way. And if you’re looking to do that more high [00:14:00] profile work, and you’re looking to, I don’t know, create or expand on the brand that you have, it’s going to require your willingness to rely on other people.

At some level, and micromanagers have an awful lot of difficulty doing what you just described, Steve, because the day only has so many minutes and hours.

Steve Fretzin: Right. Yeah, it’s difficult, no doubt about it. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality.

The best firms hire Rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases. Other law firm marketing agencies. can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at rankings. io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable?

Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for [00:15:00] rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, Fretzin.

com and apply for membership today. I think the other aspect of it is, you know, are you enjoying the work that you do? So if you are, you know, hating litigation yet you’re stuck in it, right? Or you like, I know some associates, senior associates who were doing everyone else’s work and it wasn’t in the area that they wanted to focus and it wasn’t what their passion was.

We had to work them away from that work, get your own clients in your own space, the practice area that you want to focus on and start to remove those external factors. And that also was very hard. I mean, that is to say no to partners who’ve been feeding you work and say, I’ve got my own stuff coming in, you know, that’s a difficult conversation, but it’s an [00:16:00] important one because that’s the difference between.

Maybe happiness and joy in a practice versus again, just being kind of like, Hey, I’ve got 10 bosses all sending me stuff and it’s not even enjoyable work

Michael Cohen: doing something like that. Super scary. Certainly, if you’re in a position inside the firm that you may not have the juice or the gravitas. Quite yet.

It’s scary to start telling people who are using your phrase, feeding you the word, that this isn’t really what you’re digging. This isn’t really what you want to do day to day. Now, there better be an answer for what it is you want to do day to day, that work needs to exist, or you need to generate. That kind of work, but you have to figure out what that thing is or what those things are.

Are you in the right place to do that? Does the firm or which, or with which you work have the kind of clients and the kind of day to day work that you want to do? And if not, what are you doing?

Steve Fretzin: Well, I think you have to take stock. I think that’s what you’re saying. And maybe you need to [00:17:00] talk with someone that is Superior to you, not superior, like, like, you know, someone that you trust, that is an equity partner, someone that has been around the block a few times and get some sage advice.

Maybe it’s an outside consultant. Maybe it’s. Someone that just can, you know, the thing I heard a while ago is you can’t, you can’t read the label from inside the bottle. Right. I mean, there’s people that just don’t, they can’t see what you see or what I see looking at them and listening to them and externally figuring out, you know, where they need to go and maybe how to take that first step, which is sometimes the hardest part.

Michael Cohen: Sure it is. Because again, it’s scary.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Michael Cohen: Because again, okay, if I do have this conversation with the person who’s been feeding me. What is that going to lead to? Have I become persona non grata? Is that person going to talk about me? You know, the person’s not willing to work hard. This person’s not willing to do the work that he or she or they don’t want to do on a day to day basis, which we all have to do every once in a while.

But yeah, if it’s, if you don’t have this sort of unicorn that I had in Jim, [00:18:00] somebody with whom you could speak inside of your firm, then you have to go externally. The other part, Steve, is I think the firms have to do better. Part of the issue that I see associates dealing with inside of at least the larger firms is that we pigeonhole people a little bit and don’t then give them opportunities to do other work.

How does it work? You know, a partner becomes comfortable with an associate and that associate ends up doing an awful lot of work for that single partner. Which is, I think, unless that associate is blissfully happy all the time with that situation, unfair to that associate, it’s also unfair to other associates who may want to do that kind of work.

And even if that associate is blissfully happy all the time, they’re not doing themselves, usually not doing themselves a service. By pigeonholing themselves that early on, and when I say part of that’s incumbent on the firm, you know, we talk about this notion of equity and you hear that word all the time, which is the understanding that [00:19:00] people come to our workplaces, having disparities and having enjoyed different opportunities experiences where other people have not.

And one of the ways we can achieve equity and creating sort of modifications so people can be their best selves. Is in work tracking systems to make sure that people do get different kinds of work monthly, annually, semi annually, whatever it happens to be. So it is, look, the person in the associated or the partner bears the responsibility, but I think the firm bears some responsibility in that as well.

Steve Fretzin: I mean, the thing too is, you know, I think there’s part of it is joy and part of it is happiness can come in a lot of different forms. One of them is in security success. And feeling valued. I’m concerned that many attorneys. Our focus i’m just doing the work and they’re not looking at the future they’re not looking at building their own book or the entrepreneurial side of their role which has become increasingly important.

Especially with [00:20:00] firms getting taken over clients leaving doing things more in house whatever it might be. Not everybody’s job, so I’m just putting it out there that there’s an element of enjoying the work you do and there’s an element of the firm’s responsibility that, but I think each individual needs to also think about, you know, Hey, can I, you know, what do I need to do to build my brand?

How do I need to come across authentically so that I can develop my own book of business that protects me? And by the way, it’s just more fun, I think, to have your own clients.

Michael Cohen: It is for sure. And there’s so much low hanging fruit with what you just talked about in terms of the ability to build this brand and develop the clients.

And, you know, you have a unique case or a unique matter, a unique situation with which you’re dealing. Okay. Now you’ve dealt with it over the course of the last couple of weeks. You’ve spent 50 hours on it. Which means in probably 45 to 60 minutes, you can write 1500 words, and you can get that placed somewhere.

And if you can’t get it placed somewhere, your firm has a website that’ll place it somewhere. Okay, [00:21:00] now you’ve spent the couple of hours becoming an authority on this subject, that people now will look to you, or when the Google machine tells them where to look, will point to you. Now can you develop a training about it?

And whether it’s a training for your client, or whether it’s a training for a CLE, whatever it happens to be, We have this information, and because of the day to day mundanities and the day to day work that we have to do, we lose sight of these other things that in the long run become more important in our ability to generate business down the road.

I had a mentor very early on who would tell me, you do something interesting, write an article. You have an interest, write an article. And it really helped. I love to write. So it wasn’t a huge lift, but you know, I’m a sports person and I love the Jordan, and you have in the background and I got Tug McGraw and I got AI and I got Brad Ledge, all my Philadelphia guys.

One of the first articles that I wrote was for Metropolitan Corporate Council that got a lot of run and it was LGBTQ plus issues have always been a [00:22:00] big issue in in, in our family and personally. And I wrote an article called The Myth of the Gay Free Locker Room, and it was all about. Not recognizing that there are people inside of our workplaces who are members of the LGBTQ plus community.

I’m going back to like 2005, 2006. And it got a lot of run. But it was easy and it was fun because it incorporated two things about which I was interested.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Great. But you’re making a very important point that whether it’s the practice area, whether it’s identifying the type of platform that you can podcasting, writing, speaking, You know, training, whatever it might be, you’re great at working conferences and then taking that, you know, whatever that platform is and really leaning into it and building up yourself as a thought leader, building up yourself as a brand.

That’s something many attorneys really struggle with, but they need to get on it. It’s like every day, every year you’re losing [00:23:00] traction. Like I’ve been on LinkedIn forever, but I really feel like I haven’t just started getting traction on LinkedIn. Like in the last five years, it took me. You know, 10 before that, just to be on it and to kind of, you know, noodle around.

And now I’ve really leaned into it and it’s, it’s been a game changer. So just, you gotta kind of find your, you know, find your joy in, in a lot of different ways, but think about what’s going to propel you forward as well as you go.

Michael Cohen: And I think one of the keys to that, being able to propel yourself forward is the authenticity about it.

You can’t fake it. No. You know, there, I have a couple of different sort of personas that I use on. LinkedIn or in other mark and they’re all real and one of them is this workplace culture guy because that’s what I spent an awful lot of time talking about writing about studying reading about the other is I mentioned earlier.

I coach girl softball and coach Mike has become a thing and it’s because the lessons that I take from the 13 or 14 young women I had the privilege of coaching each and every year. [00:24:00] So directly translate to what’s going on in the workplace and it works both ways. So, and these are who I am. My 21 year old daughter, who is a senior in college, still calls me coach Mike, because I coached her when she was a kid.

When I step on campus in Ann Arbor and I go to the sorority house, her friends come, coach Mike, coach Mike, that’s who I’ve become. It’s not a hard sell because that’s who really I am. That is the authentic version of me. So you can’t to use a phrase that you and I grew up, you can’t fake the funk. It’s got to be real.

It has to be authentic. And if you don’t think clients can see through the BS. That fast and realize that this person that they are being sold is not the actual person. You are underestimating the intelligence of the people from whom you are seeking to get work.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And by the way, I mean, it’s, I have a lot of listeners and folks reading my books and then they come and they meet me and we have like a 30 minute conversation about working with working together.

And they go you’re just like you’re [00:25:00] exactly who i’m listening to or you’re exactly what i’ve been reading and i go yeah that’s by the way it’s a lot easier to be authentic and it’s a lot more you know fun and interesting to be out there now if you’re a total bore and no one likes you well you may have to you know work you may have to work on yourself a little bit because that type of authenticity may not get you far but i think we have to bring our best out and when we do and we demonstrate it day in and day out and people become comfortable with it you Then it makes it, you know, so much easier to build a brand and so much easier to enjoy, you know, what you do every day.

So one single piece of advice though, Michael, as we wrap up that you would give to lawyers who aren’t feeling the joy and aren’t feeling like they’re where they need to be in their career.

Michael Cohen: I think we’ve talked about it already. Find that thing or those things.

Steve Fretzin: Find the

Michael Cohen: thing. Okay. And it may, it may take a minute.

And then once you find that thing or those things, those couple of things that get you going, the couple of things about which you have passion, whether it’s a subject matter, whether it’s an industry, [00:26:00] then you have to find the people inside of your firm who are going to allow you to run with. And not all places are Progressive or forward thinking in that way, and if you really are passionate about that thing or that industry or that subject matter or whatever it happens to be, and that the firm isn’t going to allow it, you’ve got to do a little bit of soul searching.

Yeah, don’t you?

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think we have to look at what positive changes we can make internally and externally to get where we need to go. I think lawyers struggle with that. It hits everybody. Everybody changes firms at some point or another. Everybody makes a decision to go out on their own or not, or go in house, or whatever it is that they’re going to do.

And sometimes we have to make mistakes to learn. I mean, that’s life in a nutshell, but ultimately, you know, sometimes the, what you believe is a risk is actually, you know, a good, you know, it’s just a good decision. And

Michael Cohen: once you make it, can’t be, you can’t let yourself be stopped, right? I got super lucky in as [00:27:00] much as Jim Redeker was my boss.

Because I simply don’t think there are too many people, if any, who would have made me the deal and who would have allowed me to do those things that I wanted to do.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, but you can’t, but you can’t discount, you can’t discount Michael what you brought to the table, what he saw in you. I mean, he doesn’t make that offer to anybody.

He makes that offer to you, not everybody. Right.

Michael Cohen: So

Steve Fretzin: you had

Michael Cohen: to be there for that. And once you’re given the permission, I just wouldn’t stop doing it. Any opportunity I had. I didn’t care if there were three people in the room. I was there.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Michael Cohen: Because I was honing the skill. I was honing, getting better at it in any way I could.

Steve Fretzin: You know, I just, I’m going to wrap up saying something too. I asked your final tip. Mine is you have to look for advocacy where you can find it. Advocacy in a spouse that agrees to allow you to do what you want to pursue. Advocacy and a boss that believes in you and that sees a vision for you that is different than what you’re currently doing.[00:28:00]

And I think doing something alone is much more difficult than trying to develop relationships and advocacy that allows you to pursue your dreams. So I just want to like leave with that because that’s, I think what you’re saying and what I’m saying should be resonating with people at a very high level because we’re both such smart guys, really.

Anyway. Hey, let’s wrap up a Michael and so wonderful, man. Appreciate you so much. Let them lead. Unexpected lessons in leadership from America’s worst high school hockey team, John Bacon. That’s one that has not come on the show yet. So talk about that game changing book.

Michael Cohen: It’s an amazing read. So before we went on vacation last December, I said to my older daughter, who’s a sport management major, have you read any good books that I might enjoy?

And she was fumbling all over herself. And then her boyfriend who happened to is a year older and who had John Bacon as a professor said, Oh my God, Mike, you got to read this. And I read it while we were on vacation and it’s the story of literally America’s worst hockey, high school hockey team [00:29:00] and how as a coach and as a leader, he was able to impress upon his players that this was their team.

That the only way it was going to work is if they took ownership and accountability of each other and for each other and the girls that I coach now are so annoyed that I read this because I quoted all the time lessons back all the time, but it’s the most impactful book I’d ever read and I read it at exactly the right time.

And it’s a fun read. John writes the way he talks. It’s not. You know, it’s just, it’s an easy fun read, but the leadership lessons are really, really meaningful and for me, really transformative in the way I coach and in the way I educate on a day to day basis.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, everybody check that out. It sounds like a not to be missed game changing book here.

You heard it. I’m going to be that lawyer let’s wrap up with thanking our [00:30:00] wonderful sponsors of course the podcast law her which is just killing it for women that are looking to get ahead and want to have a podcast in a platform of specifically to help women and then of course rankings I. O. who’s just crushing it again to, primarily personal injury firms that are looking to get more leads in and lock up more business, which is critical for them. Michael, thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear your story, they want to check your profile out. What’s the best way for them to reach you?

Michael Cohen: Thanks, Steve. Best ways, one of two ways, either on the Dwayne Morris website, which is D U A N E M O R R I S dot com or on LinkedIn. If you look, if you put in Michael Cohen, you know, you may get a different cat and Michael Cohen and Dwayne Morris, and you’ll find me on LinkedIn. That’s probably the best place.

But there we go. I appreciate the opportunity to have a chance to talk to you. This really was fun.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it was. You know, the most important thing, Michael, is what are we bringing to the table for the people listening? What are we bringing to the table that’s going to help them to be that lawyer?

confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Thank [00:31:00] you everybody for showing up today and putting on your, you know, coaches, you know, coachy hat and and spending some time with us today. Take care everybody, be safe, be well, and we will talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.