Nicola Hobeiche and Shereen El Domeiri: Inside the Mind of In-House Counsel: What Outside Lawyers Must Know

In this episode, Steve, Nicola, and Shereen discuss:

• Building strong relationships between in-house and outside counsel
• The importance of business acumen in legal practice
• Networking and business development for lawyers
• Adapting to the evolving legal industry

Key Takeaways:

• Outside counsel should recognize that in-house lawyers often make rapid decisions with limited information and need concise, actionable legal guidance rather than long memos.
• Many lawyers lack business literacy, making it harder for them to align legal advice with corporate goals; in-house counsel appreciate those who can bridge the legal-business gap.
• Instead of just asking for work, outside counsel should offer value by staying informed about the company’s initiatives, supporting their causes, and engaging in genuine conversations.
• In-house counsel prefer different modes of communication (text over email, early breakfast over lunch), and outside counsel should adapt to their client’s preferences to strengthen relationships.

“A lot of times, I took for granted that outside counsel understood how in-house counsel worked, and then one day I realized, ‘Oh, that’s really not the case.’ If they did, it could really elevate not only the relationship but how they connect and how they maintain those relationships.” —  Nicola Hobeiche

“If you can’t ask your friends, how are you going to ask strangers?” —  Shereen El Domeiri

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/

Episode References: 

Lawyers Behaving Badly by Karen Delaney and Jennifer Judge: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lawyers-behaving-badly/id1654960102

About Nicola Hobeiche and Shereen El Domeiri: Nicola Hobeiche and Shereen El Domeiri are the co-hosts of the Counsel Brew podcast, where they explore the journeys of legal professionals and beyond. Shereen spent much of her career as government and in-house counsel before transitioning into private practice, bringing a sharp, creative approach to problem-solving. Nicola has spent her entire legal career in-house across various industries, leveraging her global upbringing and big-picture thinking to navigate complex challenges.

Connect with Nicola and Shereen: 

Website: https://counselbrew.com/

Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/counsel-brew/id1746634154

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/counsel-brew/

Nicola’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicola-hobeiche-84699960/

Shereen’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shereeneldomeiri/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Before we get to the show, we’re going to do another one of our Q and A’s. I got people coming in from all over the country, all over the world. This is Kathy from Dallas, Texas. And she’s asking, I never feel prepared walking into a networking event. What are a few things that will help me feel more confident?

I’ll give you three things real quick, Kathy. Number one is have a prepared, solid infomercial. So when someone says, what do you do? You’ve got something right away. Okay. that you can be confident to say that’s going to get interest and have draw out questions. Happy to help you with that on the side.

My book, the attorney’s networking handbook has the chapter just on that subject. Another thing is to have some questions prepared to really think about, what you want to ask them. And you could say, what do you do? But I almost like the idea of what gets you up in the morning? What makes you, what gets you excited?

Why are you here today? What drew you to this group? Just something that maybe isn’t the typical question. And the third thing is just to get some help. Meaning that if there’s someone there that you know, or if there’s someone that is running the event to buddy up with them, let them know who you want to meet and ask for them if they [00:01:00] wouldn’t mind just to walk you around and introduce you to a few good people.

I think that’s a really good way to start out. Hopefully that helps Kathy and everybody else listening. Thanks. And I appreciate the question. Keep them coming in everybody and enjoy the show.

Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin and welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. That’s my announcer voice, guys. What do you think? Pretty good?

Nicola Hobeiche: Pretty good. I think it sounds really good. And it’s you’re consistent.

Steve Fretzin: I’m consistent. Okay. All right. I like that. This is the show about helping you be that lawyer.

Confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And we are here twice a week for you to learn all [00:02:00] about how to be that lawyer. And how to run a great law firm, how to market, how to business develop, how to deal with in house counsel, like whatever it is that we’re going to have on. We’re going to have great guests to make sure you all know what you’re doing.

Here’s a quick announcement. That’s exciting too. If you haven’t heard, I am now available on Above the Law. So that publication now has my podcast up and running on it. So I’m very excited about that partnership, but let’s jump in right away. We’ve got Shireen and Nicola. Here and yes, good job.

Yes. And let’s start off with your quote of the show. And this is very serious topic Helen Keller, for those of you who are under 30 years old and may not know who that is. We can get into that a moment, but the quote is life is either a daring adventure or nothing, which is interesting. So welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about why that quote and why you chose that quote over polish your balls every single day, which I was the other one we had to choose from.

I told you I was going to do that. I’m not a liar. [00:03:00]

Shereen El Domeiri: Good one. Thank you for having us. We are excited to be here. I have started listening to your show when I came out of corporate and was starting a law firm. So I have enjoyed it. It’s given me a lot of really good tips. And why the quote?

Nicola Hobeiche: Oh, and why the quote?

I have to keep her focused. Let’s be honest. It’s okay. That’s my job.

Steve Fretzin: The show so well that you skipped over the explanation of the

Shereen El Domeiri: quote. I think it sums up how Nicole and I are living our lives. Like you got to let go big, go home, or Have fun or what? Nothing have fun.

I

Nicola Hobeiche: think it also summarizes our friendship, right? So we’re all in and we’ve been that way since I forced her to be my friend over 20 years ago.

Steve Fretzin: So you guys have decided to push in on the. Have a daring adventure over death and nothingness. Is that what I’m hearing? Yes. Okay. By the way, good decision.

You guys really must have thought that out hard and long and hard. [00:04:00] Let’s see. Do I want to have fun and have a wonderful life or just die? Let’s see. Yeah. We can rest when we’re dead.

Nicola Hobeiche: Let’s be honest. Our other big personal goal is when we’re in the nursing homes one day and we’ve outlived our husbands and we need things to talk about.

We’ll be able to talk about all our big adventures.

Steve Fretzin: There you go. Yeah. You gotta have some interesting videos hidden too, that you can pull up. Anyway, listen guys, I’m so excited that you’re here and that you’re with us. We’ve got Nicola Hobage, and we’ve got Shireen Edumary, Ed, I just screwed that up so badly.

But

Nicola Hobeiche: it was her name. So that’s good. All right.

Steve Fretzin: Yes. So Shireen, go, go bite a lemon. All right. Too bad. And you guys are both the co hosts of the podcast Council Brew. And I would love for you guys to give a little background, not only on the show, but also on your, just your backgrounds in house and how you came to be.

And and then we’ve got, I’ve got a bunch of questions for you because we don’t often interview and have conversations with in house lawyers and all that. So this is to me, [00:05:00] this is a exciting new area we can talk through.

Shereen El Domeiri: So why did we do the pocket? So as I had mentioned earlier, I rolled out of in house position around the pandemic.

And decided this is a time for me to Think about starting a firm. So I dove all in, joined a bunch of business groups and through one of those had an intro to podcasting. And one day I showed up and told Nicola, Hey, I think we should do a podcast. There’s a lot of podcasts out there for lawyers and there’s actually a couple of programs here at the Dallas bar that highlight really cool lawyers, but I was like, okay, but that’s only a handful of people.

And there’s so many great stories. And as I’ve been on this journey there’s a lot of ways to get to where you want to go, right? There’s not one dedicated path, which I think a lot of us felt that when we came out of law school, and it’s just not. True. And so we’re trying to highlight those folks and their path to what we call their path to badassery.

Nicola Hobeiche: And I confess, I’m a sucker for a microphone. So when Rine offered to buy a microphone as [00:06:00] part of it, I don’t even think, I know I didn’t, I never even asked her, what are we gonna talk about? She just said, microphone, podcast. I said, yes, .

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that was it. You were just, that was it. You had stars in your eyes when you heard microphone.

I get to be. A radio, host and actress on stage. I get to perform right back to you guys do that in high school. Did you do any like theater in high school or anything like that?

Nicola Hobeiche: I did not, but I do have really great cassette tapes from when I was a kid where I was interviewing my best friend at the time and we did different voices and it was like a mini SNL.

That my daughter discovered a few years ago and made my husband listen to over and over again in the only car that has a cassette player still in it. So those were radiant moments that I got to relive. Yes.

Shereen El Domeiri: Yes,

Nicola Hobeiche: I

Shereen El Domeiri: was a radio DJ for a couple of summers. Oh, there you go. Okay. So we just had to one up me.

I’m sorry. Yeah, at the local college radio station. That was fun.

Steve Fretzin: Very cool. Yeah. I never really got to do it. I’ve just been, speaking for, 25 years or something like that in front of audiences. And I [00:07:00] never really, and I, get some videos put together, but this has been such an amazing stage to, coming up on five years to be able to, talk with people and get to know people.

And I think also, I think you guys are highly authentic and I try to be just who I am and everything. And I think that’s really important today because we’re. We’re just seeing a lot of created crap, and it’s nice when people can just be themselves and you can really get a good feeling for who they are as people.

Nicola Hobeiche: Yeah, you definitely get the real us on the podcast and you’re not alone in the mispronunciation of names. There’s some pretty great episodes where Shireen just butchered the name. That’s so good. Yeah, okay.

Shereen El Domeiri: I don’t take offense because like I misspell it. I mispronounce it. I’ve been, I can figure out when people are trying to say my name.

So it’s fine. And then I’m sure everybody else is. It’s fine.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I like when people mispronounce my name. Fritzen and Fretzine and all that. And then I don’t ever feel bad if I mess up there. So it’s quid pro quo on that. So tell us a little bit about your outside [00:08:00] counsel experience, and that’s going to be a good lead into a number of questions that I have for you today that I believe will help lawyers, figure out a, is that a direction they want to go versus the private practice.

And then my jam of course, is helping lawyers get into meat. General counsels and pick up that business, which is a whole different direction. I want to take you guys down and get some good insight. So Shereen, you want to start us out?

Shereen El Domeiri: Yeah. I had a long career mostly in house, right? So I started out in the government.

Cole and I both worked together for the city. And then I went on and represented the federal government at the federal trade commission. So the first decade of my career was all government service. And then after that, I. I joined Nicola at the corporation that she was at and was in house there and then a startup that during the pandemic didn’t start up and I decided, hey, that little idea percolating in the back of my head to start my own practice bubbled up and I did that for a little while and then joined a group of incredible lawyers that are just being innovative.

A lot of them had been in house counsel as well, or have [00:09:00] their own businesses. So it’s a good fit for me with a little entrepreneurial bug and also having that experience. To be outside counsel, and then be able to partner well with in house counsel,

Nicola Hobeiche: and I’ve only ever been in house. In my 20 years of practice, I went straight into the government.

Although I would say a lot of people don’t really appreciate that is in house, but the. Where we worked, it was 80 plus lawyers running that city. So it was really crazy when you think about, that’s a bigger than a midsize law firm for sure. And then I’ve been in house for different corporations, both in financial services, the toy industry, and even the RV industry.

So it’s been really interesting getting to do it. And I think what Shireen through her different experiences has highlighted for me, I’ve always taken for granted that outside counsel gets not always For many years, I took for granted that outside counsel understood how in house counsel work. And then one day I realized, oh, that’s really not the [00:10:00] case.

There are definitely things that I think can be highlighted that outside counsel don’t necessarily appreciate or understand the perspective of in house counsel that if they did, it could really elevate not only the relationship, but how they connect and how they maintain those relationships.

Steve Fretzin: Go with that.

What don’t they understand? Because I’m, interacting with lawyers all over the world that could really use that insight.

Nicola Hobeiche: Yeah, I think some of the key things are, when you’re working in house counsel, you’re an employee of the organization and you are pulled in a lot of different directions.

There are in house counsel that are very You know targeted practices inside those organizations but then there are a lot of them are generalist and so they’re really getting pulled into anything and everything and I very rarely have a day that I’ve mapped out that actually ends up being the day that I mapped out and often times, yeah, and often find myself in situations or conversations where I’m being asked a question [00:11:00] about something that I know a little bit about or maybe nothing at all and I’m having to make a pretty.

Educated decision and provide advice in 10 minutes, 30 minutes. I don’t have the luxury of going and researching it. And, pulling up a memo and talking to my, other attorneys in my office and trying to figure out how I’m going to respond to this client. I’m really taking that short conversation, pulling as much as I can out of it, applying it to the knowledge I have and trying to give a best.

Scenario on how to navigate that get to their business goal with the least amount of risk, right? So I think there’s that piece of it

Shereen El Domeiri: I would say the I mean going with the risk piece is that you have to have a much higher risk tolerance In house, because business is moving very quickly, right?

They don’t want to wait for a memo and they really have to be able to digest the information from your business and then from your outside counsel to be able to give [00:12:00] an operational and implementable. Solution, right? That’s not no, unless they’re going to go to jail, right? And usually that’s not the cut off.

That’s if you’re going to go to jail, like it’s no, but that’s very rare. So I think that piece is important. And one of the other pieces is that a lot of lawyers don’t speak business.

Nicola Hobeiche: Yeah.

Shereen El Domeiri: I was one of those lawyers. I didn’t know that until I got in and went into financial services.

So had to learn that very quickly. And I think that piece is also something that they need

Steve Fretzin: to understand. So when you say they don’t speak business, it’s that they don’t understand the business side of a business. Like they know the law, but they don’t necessarily know like how the business runs. So it’s difficult for them to put them together.

Nicola Hobeiche: I think there’s that. I think it’s also just understanding, the different letters that get thrown at you, right? There’s all sorts of acronyms and other references that the business uses with ease that, we don’t get taught in law school. Okay. [00:13:00] I would say as in house counsel, it has a very humbling aspect to it.

I often find myself saying, Can you explain that to me? What does this mean? Or on the side, I’m Googling and trying to figure out what these three letters might mean to understand the context of the conversation. Or, I get real comfortable with saying, I don’t know the answer, but I’ll get back to you.

We’re just not trained to do that as lawyers. So I think that’s a really hard thing to allow yourself to do. And then, as outside counsel, that probably sounds horrifying. If you’re going to tell a client, I don’t know. But if I have a good relationship with you and trust, I want you to be able to tell me what you know and don’t know.

And then we can figure out how to get the expertise because oftentimes the reason I’m reaching out is because I either need your expertise. This is like the area that I know enough about but I need you or I need you because I don’t have enough resources internally because I’m spread so thin depending on the size of our legal department and I need you to be [00:14:00] an extension of me and you can’t be an extension of me if you don’t understand how to say I don’t know right or to ask the questions you need to get in order to be able to make the give the advice that you need to give.

Gotcha.

Steve Fretzin: With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings. Get cases.

And schedule a free consultation at Rankings. io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity.

Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner [00:15:00] who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shopping, So I’ve been consulting my clients for years on how to develop relationships with all different kinds of people, but business owners and such.

Also with inside counsel and one of the things that I tell them is to continue to ask questions like, what do you have on your desk that you need to get off of it? What’s keeping you, crazy or what else can I do for you to help you in your career? And you’re within your position to try to deepen the relationship between just the work and the matters and actually, me.

With that in house counsel, is that good advice? Why is it good advice? Should they be doing that and more? Is that too much?

Nicola Hobeiche: No, I like that. I don’t think you can just dive

Steve Fretzin: in with that. No, this is after you’ve been working together for a year or two and the relationship is great. You’ve [00:16:00] saved the outside counsel has saved the day.

Like you want to have that. But I think I’m, what I’m trying to do is like, how do you deepen the relationships? Because people. As are changing jobs. In house counsels are moving around more than ever before. And the worst feeling in the world is when you do a great job and then that in house counsel leaves and you lose that business because you didn’t deepen the relationship enough to go with.

Is it?

Nicola Hobeiche: There’s areas. When I come when Shereen was my outside counsel on certain matters. So she was very focused on whatever the issue was that I was needing help with or the project, right? That was critical in the moment, but then there’s so many other facets of the business So just through her asking me questions like okay, we finished that marketing project or that privacy project, whatever it is Tell me some other things that are happening in the business.

What are you trying to accomplish this season or this year? Or, where do you see changes occurring within the business? How is your market being impacted by X? In house counsel, we’re lawyers too, and we [00:17:00] also like to hear ourselves talk.

Steve Fretzin: What? What? This way.

Nicola Hobeiche: If you really want to engage your in house counsel, we love to talk about the things we’re doing and, more often than not, we’re passionate about our client, especially because it’s the only client we have.

So we’re all in. And we want to be talking about the cool things that we’re doing. We’re seeing, challenges in the marketplace or the industry. Regulatory things. If you’re heavily regulated, just excited. We’re excited to talk about what we do and what our businesses are doing and how we’re trying to thrive.

So I think that’s a really natural, nice way to get to know your client. And in that conversation. A topic may come up that then naturally segues into something else that you have familiarity with or that your firm specializes

Steve Fretzin: in, right? So the cross marketing that maybe hadn’t happened can happen because they’re asking questions and identifying that there might be problems or things that another lawyer in that firm might be able to assist with.[00:18:00]

And obviously the more business that firm can do with an in house counsel, the stickier things get and better for all, potentially.

Shereen El Domeiri: I would also say, the advice, the public companies, there’s a lot more documentation out there for you to keep up with what’s happening, but for the private companies, I think these conversations are really important.

Like what’s on the horizon, what’s going to launch or just periodically checking out the company’s website and what they’re posting, following them on LinkedIn to see the latest, whatever’s coming out. Yeah. So that you know what’s going on. Generally, if you’re actually working within council, you will probably know some of those things, but you’re not going to know all of them, right?

Your marketing council’s not going to know all the things that are going on necessarily with the technology and your AI policies and some other stuff, right? And what you guys are doing, what you’re implementing there. So

Nicola Hobeiche: I think the other key is to be flexible as outside council, because for me, I hate emails, so if you’re emailing me a bunch of stuff, I may or may not see it or [00:19:00] spend time on it.

I really like texts. That’s how you get to me faster. I, my counsel that I work with the most, if there’s something critical we’re working on or that’s time sensitive, they may email it because that’s important for them to have that trail, but they may also shoot me a text just saying, hey, I just shot you an email with this information that you’re going to want to look at.

Or, in response to whatever we were discussing, I also I have a hard time stepping away for lunch. Lunch is not an ideal time for me. My business is on across several time zones, so lunchtime is just as busy as the morning in the afternoon. But I do love like a late coffee when the East Coast is closed, right?

Or closing down for the day or an early breakfast, so I think getting to know your council. And figuring out how to meet them in the space that works with their schedules is really good. I love to volunteer, getting to volunteer with my outside counsel. Another great way to just get to know each other on a personal level.

Steve Fretzin: [00:20:00] But the timing of when they’re typically slower, more available, the way that you communicate, email, text, phone, what’s their style? These are all things that I think lawyers need to pick up on. That are dealing with in house councils to communicate more effectively and make sure that they’re not catching you during, a hair on fire moment, if possible.

I’ve got a different direction. I want to take this. It’s more on the private lawyers that want to meet. So let me do this. Okay. I had a client a few years ago who’s in the IP space and she says she’s going to a conference and she goes to this conference every year and she has all of these super high powered GC friends and they meet her for lunch and they meet her for coffee and they meet her for drinks.

She gets zero business from them and these are all the people that could give her work and she’s very good at what she does. But she’s terrified to approach the subject of, she’s in the friend zone, do the air quotes. And how do I get out of the friend zone? And I’m not going [00:21:00] to give away my secrets, although I gave her three or four really good ideas.

What’s your take on how someone that is your friend, and maybe this is something you guys could actually do because you did it, but how does someone break through the barrier? And even if maybe you don’t need that work at the time, at least they’re, they have the gumption to bring it up to you in a way that’s not offensive or.

That’s not going to hurt the relationship because that’s the big concern, right? People don’t want to hurt the relationship with their friend by bringing up. We could do business together.

Nicola Hobeiche: I’ll give my perspective and then probably has a different point of view in the midst of it. So for me. I would say, a nice way to do it.

If we’re at that conference, probably that conference. I’m there for a lot of reasons, and I’m not necessarily looking for outside counsel. I’m going to educate myself to get more knowledgeable on an area of law that I need, et cetera, and make contacts and so forth. But I’m going to remember the people I met with and I think afterwards, I always enjoy it when someone follows up with me, whether it’s through a LinkedIn message or if they have my [00:22:00] work email and they, point out, hey, it was really great catching up with you.

I really enjoyed XYZ would love to meet up for coffee or breakfast or I came across this article that’s on point with something that we went and attended together. I thought I’d share it with you. Here’s why I think it’s important. There’s yeah. Nice soft ways to touch up if it’s something that she doesn’t want to just come out and say I need I want What do you have give me the word you can ask that too?

And I you know, I think most people would just say for telling me you’re interested in helping me with that I don’t have anything currently, but then you’re also on my short list I think you can go both directions. You just have to know

Shereen El Domeiri: your audience Yeah, I feel like if you can’t ask your friends, how are you going to ask strangers, in you spent time building these relationships, right?

So a lot of folks now that I’m friends with, right? We went to law school together. We served on the bar together. There’s all this pattern of things that we’ve done together. So they know my character and frankly, a lot of times I run into them and they’ll [00:23:00] be telling me. What’s going on or that, the really spread thin and that’s usually the moment where I’m like, I’m literally right here, right?

That happened when the cola like it was literally that conversation like in

Nicola Hobeiche: my garage.

Shereen El Domeiri: No, it was at dinner. We went to dinner. Yes. Oh, dinner was a

Nicola Hobeiche: dinner

Shereen El Domeiri: and forgot you had this crazy. It was like, I need to clone myself and I literally said I’m right here

Nicola Hobeiche: and she had an interview the following Monday.

And, yeah, that was, I came

Shereen El Domeiri: in on his contract and then I went in house, but I did it recently with another friend oh, my assistant’s going on maternity leave. And I was like, so can I help you? Can I be of assistance? I

Steve Fretzin: think the advice that I’m giving in this is one of my more recent books is called it’s not rocket science, right?

Legal business development is a rocket science, but. Essentially, it’s be curious, be interested and ask, what do you have, what’s going on? What do you have, that you can’t get off your plate? What’s your big plan for 2025? What are your, the challenges that you’re looking? I wish I [00:24:00] could clone myself.

And those, what happens is that can, to your point, expose. The problems, the challenges, and the things where you may be able to offer and say listen, I don’t know if you’re comfortable with this, but I, this is what I do, obviously you two have the kind of relationship.

You could say, look at me. I’m in front of you. Other people might have to, that maybe don’t have quite the same close relationship. May have to say look, would it make sense for us to have a conversation about that? I may be able to at least help advise you or give you some thoughts.

That’s what I was going.

Shereen El Domeiri: Even for some of the folks that are in bigger companies, right? So the question is, can you tell me about the RFP process? I think, the firm is at a point where we think this would be a good client. Can you give us a little insight on how to approach the RFP process so that we can get in the mix, right?

Especially if it’s a public. Like a semi governmental entity or something like that. And we just do that. We are fortunate also here at the in Dallas. Our bar is focusing on that and making we have places where we can go and get to know some of these folks and then ask for intros. If you’re not comfortable [00:25:00] for asking the work from your friends directly.

Ask them for the intro for the GCs that they know in companies that you want to work with. Yeah,

Steve Fretzin: they’re always happy to do that. But they don’t know lawyers struggle with that. I’m working with them all the time on that, on the language and the approach, because that’s where they’re finding a tremendous amount of angst.

Nicola Hobeiche: I think people are just naturally fearful of rejection, right? And if you get a no, that can feel like rejection, but really a no could be a. No, I don’t have anything right now. But now I know you’re interested. So then when I do have something, because let’s be honest, like in house counsel, they A lot of times don’t have control over the issues that are coming through, right?

We try to be as proactive as we can and plan. And there’s certain things you can predict for. But then there’s other things that we just can’t predict for. And we’re being, we’re in reactive mode. And so even though you may get a no right now, it may be a yes later. And it’s just a patience game.

I think also maybe [00:26:00] outside counsel doesn’t appreciate and realize, when we have a change of chief legal officer, that chief legal officer is going to be bringing their relationships to their new organization. And so part of it, too, is how do you as outside counsel help your connection internally?

get connected and get familiar with the new person in charge. What can I do? How do I learn about them? Can you make an intro? What are their needs? And use and leverage the relationship you do have in that organization to learn more about the person that is now running the whole organization so that maybe you don’t fall off the list.

Steve Fretzin: I think there’s an opportunity to develop a relationship so strong and deep. So that when the GC leaves, they take you with, but you also have the relationships with the other assistant GCs and other executives at that company where you can stay there too. That’s the promise land of.

Of outside counsel and keeping business, but I don’t think that happens [00:27:00] Because you’re a good lawyer and you do good work and that’s it I think there’s depth of not only the relationship but depth of how you’re adding value For the in house counsel that goes beyond what most lawyers are doing is that maybe we’ll wrap up on that point But is that fairly accurate?

No,

Nicola Hobeiche: I think that’s true There’s lots of great lawyers out there that are really good at what they do

Shereen El Domeiri: Yeah, but I mean to your point like how to deepen it support causes That they are their company really enjoy so that you can meet more than just the one lawyer that you know, right? So volunteer work sponsoring certain events that you know, that somebody is going to be there sponsoring the lawyers for awards, right?

I think that’s really good in buying

Nicola Hobeiche: the lawyers to come in and speak to your firm and share about, what their expectations are with outside counsel, what works, what doesn’t and have a fireside chat and be really effective. And again, in house lawyers like talking just as much as outside counsel, right?

We like talking about what we do. And that also shows interest to your in house client [00:28:00] that you really want to explore and deepen the relationship. It’s also a great

Steve Fretzin: way to get connected. Yeah this has been, so powerful and eye opening and I hope that folks that are listening that have that angst and have that friend zone mentality and are really just struggling with, that’s where the, I think a lot of the low hanging fruit business it’s in the in house council and the presidents and the CEOs and the relation to the clients that you have that you’ve deep relationship with, but you’re not comfortable making the ask.

You’re not comfortable cross marketing, you’re not doing the right things to be in a position to. Spend less time to get more because you’re good at what you do and you’ve gone the extra mile. So that’s it always reminds

Shereen El Domeiri: me of a quote from one of our like our oil and gas professor. He’d always you know about all the disputes.

It’s just business, right? It’s

Steve Fretzin: just

Shereen El Domeiri: business.

Steve Fretzin: Love it. I love it. That’s where we’re going to wrap things up on our game changing podcast. And this sounds like YouTube, but lawyers behaving badly podcast. I’ve heard that before, but whose [00:29:00] podcast is that? Oh my

Shereen El Domeiri: gosh. You’re going to, you’re going

Steve Fretzin: to put us on this, but

Nicola Hobeiche: they are Jennifer judge and Karen Delaney.

Yeah. Okay. They started it a couple of years ago. They are hilarious. They actually researched for their podcast. Unlike Shereen and me. just by the nature of their topics. They don’t have guests, but what I love about it is they really identify the ridiculousness of things that happen in the world and in the legal world.

And they do the research and some of the stuff that they dig up is priceless.

Steve Fretzin: There’s an unlimited wealth of material. If we’re talking about stupid Oh yeah. Oh my God. All right. Awesome. Listen, let’s wrap up with her. Have you guys did I introduce you or have you heard of law her podcast? Yes, I have.

With Sonya? Yeah. Yes. So that’s a phenomenal podcast. Really empowering women lawyers to be their best selves and everything. And so I want to Sonya Palmer running that and got to give a shout out to our friends over at PIMCON happening in [00:30:00] October. You can check that out online if you’re interested in the top personal injury.

Conference of the year. That’s going to be with our friend, Chris Dreyer. If people want to, listen to your show or they want to learn more about you too, what are the best ways for them to find you both?

Shereen El Domeiri: LinkedIn for us individually is great. And then on socials, including LinkedIn at council brew, so council as in lawyers, right?

SEL and brew as in for us, it’s coffee, but whatever your brew choices.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. Do you guys

Shereen El Domeiri: grind beans?

Steve Fretzin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Just checking. We have

Shereen El Domeiri: fancy machines. We have all

Steve Fretzin: sorts of

Shereen El Domeiri: stuff.

Steve Fretzin: All right. All right. But we love

Nicola Hobeiche: exploring the path to badassery. And we do have a lot of lawyers, but we also have non lawyers.

And it’s been really fun to see. The journeys are not unsimilar, but everybody has their own unique path of challenges and different things they’ve overcome. They look shiny and pretty. But when you really dig deep, you realize what all it took to get to where they are. Yeah. So it’s pretty fun.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Pretty cool stuff, guys. Thank you so much for coming on the show, [00:31:00] sharing your wisdom. And I think this has just been, again, not a topic that we have had on, coming up on 500 shows, and I think it’s really an important topic for lawyers. To manage and develop and create these relationships within house counsel so that they can, again, be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.

You didn’t know I was going to go there. I always go there. That’s the way to wrap things up. And anyway, I appreciate you both. Thanks so much. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, together now. Stereo.

Nicola Hobeiche: That was so good. Yeah. We didn’t practice that.

Steve Fretzin: That’s it. That’s it. Hey everybody. Thank you for hanging out with us today.

And just again, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, a skilled rainmaker. Take care. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening. To be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice, visit Steve’s website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal [00:32:00] business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.