Nancy Fox: Networking Business Development and the Future of Rainmaking in Law

Steve: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back. It’s Steve Fretzin and this is the Be That Lawyer podcast. We are everything about helping attorneys grow the successful practice that they’ve always dreamed of. And I’m just so happy that you’re here if you haven’t, uh, been checking it out. We also have be that lawyer coach’s corner, uh, to give you some more direct advice and tips.

Steve: [00:00:22] Uh, I’ve got a YouTube channel, five books and a lot of other stuff too. Uh, just type my name into Google, see what happens. I dare you. Uh, anyway, I wanna welcome you to the show and, and, really excited to have this guest. We, you’ve been like Nancy, you’ve been an amazing sort of support. I mean, we met not that long ago through Matt Kbu, right?

Nancy: [00:00:39] Yes, we did. And you’ve been

Steve: [00:00:40] like a super supporter of mine already. On, on LinkedIn and everything. I’ve just been like, wow, there’s Nancy again. Just, you know, adding in her 2 cents and it’s just been really wonderful as I’m just thrilled to have you on the show.

Nancy: [00:00:52] I I’m just really honored that you invited me because I like your content so much and I just, you know, it’s very interesting ’cause when you hear about somebody you don’t really know until you actually meet them and there was a, a connection right away.

Nancy: [00:01:03] So I’m so happy to be able to support you. Yeah.

Steve: [00:01:05] And no surprise that Mr. Uh, Mr. Kbi, uh, set us up. He’s, he’s one of the great connectors and, uh, and a good friend of mine and a neighbor. Less so now. I moved about 15 minutes away from him, but that, that wasn’t intentional about him. Hey everybody, we’ve got a great show.

Steve: [00:01:19] We’re gonna get to, I mean, if you wanna really take a deep dive into business development and best practices and how to, how to, you know, really do it with strategy and thought and tact and tactics and, and, and planning, that’s, you know, this is not gonna be about winging it. And at random acts of marketing, this is gonna be getting, getting into the weeds on best practices.

Steve: [00:01:38] And of course we have to start with our quota of show, which I love to do. How not? If so, welcome to the show again, and, and talk to us a little bit about that, that very short but powerful quote.

Nancy: [00:01:49] So, yeah, thanks Steve. You know, when I first started my business, it was really, it was such a mind, it was a mind shift that needed ha to happen first, and there were so many millions of reasons about why this was, why it couldn’t work and all of that.

Nancy: [00:02:02] And I found the same thing happening with my clients too, that there were, they had so many concerns and it was a lot of mind trash that was really preventing them. So I needed to have something that I could share with them that would get them out of all of that, you know? Deliberation and concerns and all of the excuses and how not if became the way to explain it.

Nancy: [00:02:23] In other words, this is not about if you can do it, this is about, we’re gonna only focus on how to get it done. Yeah. Like we’re gonna find the way and that be sort of became an easy way to help. My, not only myself, but my clients too.

Steve: [00:02:36] Yeah. And I think that, like you’re saying, there’s so many different reasons to not take action because I’m busy, right?

Steve: [00:02:42] I have billable hours, I have a family, I have all these things, and then, you know, hey, I’m a 30 5-year-old service partner. And then guess what? Now I’m a 50-year-old service partner. Well, why? Because of, if. And just, just putting things off year after year. And you know, this show, I know the listeners, they’re, they’re not, that, those people, you know, the people that listen to this show are action takers and they’re interested in growth.

Steve: [00:03:02] And, and that’s why I’m so fortunate to have such an amazing audience. And, and, so let’s, let’s dive into it. Everybody, Nancy Fox, CEO of WYZ, rainmakers. And, give us a little background on how you came to be and, and how you ended up in this space working with, uh, law firms.

Nancy: [00:03:18] Well, it was really interesting, you know, it was sort of, it was never in my, in my field of vision that that was what was gonna happen.

Nancy: [00:03:24] I had a really good friend who was a, she was the marketing, director, and her boss was the VP of marketing for, CMO of a law firm, a big law firm here in California. And, uh, she was complaining a lot about their lawyers not, you know, losing, losing deals. And, and I said, you know. I, I work with people on business development.

Nancy: [00:03:47] Why don’t we explore further? And she said, well, we really need to get on the call with my boss and everything. So the three of us would get on these calls, and these calls went on for about a month. And I would have all these directions and ideas and strategies, and there was always, oh yeah, but a, yeah, but, and they were.

Nancy: [00:04:03] Working with a lot of these big, you know, strategists and rainmaking experts. But no, they were getting nowhere. And finally I said, you know, why don’t you do this? I was living in New York at the time. They, I said, why don’t you bring me in for a day? And all I’m gonna do is I’m gonna meet with every single person, every single lawyer in the practice group.

Nancy: [00:04:20] It was the real estate practice group. And I’ll talk to, I’ll just ask them questions and I’ll talk to ’em. And if they wanna hire me, great. If they don’t, at least you got, you got. You’re gonna get some strategies and ideas, whether you ever engaged me or not. And to a person, they all said, yeah, let’s bring her in.

Nancy: [00:04:36] And that’s where it began. I started working with a very big law firm here in California. They opened other offices in New York. So then I started working with the New York office and I started working with a lot of lawyers, at different stages of their, of their careers. Some were new associates or you know, they wanted to be promoted.

Nancy: [00:04:54] Others were senior partners who had just come into the firm and they had big goals that they had to hit. So it just began that way.

Steve: [00:05:01] Yeah. And then, uh, one thing leads to another. I mean, I’m, I’m sort of similar and, and never seeing sort of the, the, the path for legal and working in legal. Uh, I worked in over 50 industries other than legal.

Steve: [00:05:13] And, uh, again, when I, it took, it took the recession in 2008 to kind of pull me in because. Lawyers started coming out of the woodwork. And look, I, I’m not trying to put fear in anybody’s minds, but I think about 2008, I think about what’s going on right now in the world. And maybe that’s a good lead into our conversation today because, you know, there are service attorneys that just do everyone’s work and they might be happy and they might be doing fine right now.

Steve: [00:05:37] Do you see that lack of concern as a concern for you?

Nancy: [00:05:44] So, I think that anytime that there is a contraction or a big change in the market, that there is a lot of, there’s a lot of, concern and, and. Danger ahead. Mm-hmm. You know, look at it that, but there’s also a huge opportunity. A lot of people got extremely successful out of the 2000 8, 9, 10 recession.

Nancy: [00:06:07] And so I’m looking at ways for my clients to actually take advantage of what’s going on. The, but we’re, we’re, the only thing that’s really different about this time is that there’s so much uncertainty. In other words, there’s a lot of, It’s sort of mercurial right now. You know, things are going, every day is a different story and that’s a little challenging.

Nancy: [00:06:24] Mm-hmm. And that means that people need to be a lot more agile. Agility is not necessarily what lawyers are trained in. Very few people are, but being a agile and being flexible is something that I think all of us really need to look at, and it’s those of us who can, you know, pivot a little bit or strategically look at opportunities differently, I think that’s gonna help a huge amount.

Nancy: [00:06:48] Plus, I think we’re living with ai, and AI is just. We don’t know a lot. There’s gonna be a shakeout in AI too, so we need to be prepared for that as well. Yeah,

Steve: [00:06:59] and I guess I’m, I’m leaning into this, you know, this idea that, you know, you need to be, you know, you need to be your best advocate. And, and, and again, if you have your own clients, you have your own business, what this show is all about, be that lawyer.

Steve: [00:07:13] You have a real opportunity to be successful in difficult times and pivot and, and be agile to your point. The other side of it is if you’re relying on the five partners that feed you, and that’s where your hours come from, and you really have no control over your career, the firm trajectory, you know, again, that’s a, that’s your call.

Steve: [00:07:32] And I can only tell you from my experience in 2008 of why I got into this is that people lost their jobs and people are losing their jobs. I’m, I’m interviewing someone on the podcast that worked. For the federal government in, in, is it, you know, in, in house. And guess what? She’s, you know, had to, had to pivot and figure it out.

Steve: [00:07:48] And it ain’t easy. And there’s a lot of people on the street right now that, that are looking for work. But let’s, let’s get into the people that are making efforts to really, you know, kind of choose their own luck and their own path. So what are some of the top mistakes that lawyers are making when they decide that it’s time and that they’re, they’re actively going to build their practice?

Steve: [00:08:07] What are, what are, where are they kind of missing the boat?

Nancy: [00:08:10] Well, I think the first mistake is, and by the way, to your very point, I think that that is, you’re absolutely right that I think if you’re dependent on other people for your, for your income and for your livelihood, it’s very dangerous. And I think that a lot of lawyers, you know, it is a knee jerk reaction.

Nancy: [00:08:28] It’s like, where should I network? Where, who should I? How am I gonna get referrals? It’s knee jerk. So they ask their friends, and where should I network? And very often there’s no strategy behind it. So they’ll join a networking, group, or they’ll join a networking program, or they’ll go out to different events without any strategy about who they really need to be meeting.

Nancy: [00:08:46] So the whole idea that I think is really important is think about. Who your decision makers are and where are they congregating? Way more than just join the nearest or the most, or the less least expensive, networking effort. And that’s another mistake I think a lot of people make, is they join, they’ll become a member of the least expensive networking organization they can ’cause they don’t wanna invest in it.

Nancy: [00:09:10] Mm-hmm. That’s actually the, the antithesis of what they should be doing. You need to go exactly where your people are congregating. If you’re going to a con, if you’re in the medical device, intellectual property arena, you wanna be going where your intellectual property companies are going. And if that’s gonna cost you 6,000 bucks to go to a conference, do it.

Nancy: [00:09:28] Because out of that, you’re gonna meet the actual decision makers. Now it’s that strategy. Take some confidence. Take some belief in yourself. But I would rather spend $6,000 where my people are really going than $2,500 a year on a hope and a prayer.

Steve: [00:09:45] Yeah. Well, let me, let me add to what you’re saying.

Steve: [00:09:47] ’cause I think, you know, you’re spot on. The, the issue is there are lawyers that spend the 6,000, they go for three, four days. They listen everything. They, they, they don’t really know what they’re doing. And then they come back $6,000 lighter. And they picked up a CLE or two. So I think it’s a combination of choosing where the people are and then focusing on the contents being created by you and I and, and, and, and engaging with coaches or even mentors to say, Hey, I’m going to a conference.

Steve: [00:10:15] I’m spending $6,000. How do I plan for that? How do I execute when I’m there? How do I follow through? Because if you miss any of those three things. You’re gonna basically, you know, burn the money that you just spent. So I think there’s more to it than we’re, we’re kind of starting at the beginning, but I, and I get what you’re saying, but maybe, maybe give a little more, a little more meat on the bone there.

Nancy: [00:10:38] Yeah, that’s a real, I’m glad you’re, so, step one is, where’s the, where are they going? And then preparing and prepping before you go, how to meet, how to set yourself up to meet your decision makers before you ever actually set foot in the, in the door.

Steve: [00:10:52] Yeah.

Nancy: [00:10:53] There’s a whole strategy around that where you can actually learn about who’s gonna be attending, who’s gonna be speaking, who’s the program director.

Nancy: [00:11:01] Who is the, I mean, learn the people who are organizing these events. They can become your friends and connector connections before you ever walk in the door. Yeah. You can even look at past events. To see who’s attended and learn who was go, who went and, and connected them before. So many different cool ways to, to meet people and set yourself up with meetings so that when you’re there, you can set up coffee dates and drink dates with people before you ever walk in the door.

Steve: [00:11:27] Yeah.

Nancy: [00:11:28] But

Steve: [00:11:28] if, but if so, is, is that the number one mistake? Is that they’re not targeting where their people are and going there, or is there something bigger, uh, that, that you would say is like the number one mistake lawyers make? Not building business or not growing their law practice?

Nancy: [00:11:45] Well, I think, you know, I don’t know if this is, I would call this a mistake, Steve.

Nancy: [00:11:49] I would say that it’s a very common thinking approach. A very common approach, and that is depending 100% on for on referrals.

Steve: [00:11:56] Yeah. I

Nancy: [00:11:57] mean it’s, everybody wants referrals. That’s what, that’s what most rainmaking programs are focused on, how to get referrals, how to build your referral circle. I’m all for that.

Nancy: [00:12:07] But if you, it’s like having an UND diversified portfolio of your investment. So if you’re only focusing on referrals, you’re depending on other people to have the power in your practice. Yeah. So I really am a firm believer in having that balanced portfolio of referral sources of the right people.

Nancy: [00:12:23] Mm-hmm. And then building your own, your own, portfolio of decision makers who know you, who love you, who trust you, have confidence in you, and spread the word about you and work with you and hire you. Yeah.

Steve: [00:12:34] If you’re a rainmaker and you’re feeling like you’re on an island, you don’t have anyone to share your ideas with, solve problems with, you’re gonna want to check out my rainmaker round tables, click the link below and learn more.

Steve: [00:12:44] So the big argument that, that lawyers are gonna have, and again, as you said, mine trash, I call it head trash. We’re exactly where you and I are. Two peas in the pod. It’s, it’s, look, I’ve done this before. I’ve been to networking events, I’ve attended conferences, I’ve, I’ve tried networking. It didn’t really work.

Steve: [00:13:00] So I’m just not gonna bother, right? I’m just gonna stay the course and just do my bill, my hours and go home and see my family, which I totally get. Nobody wants to spend more time with their family than this guy, however, and then you can go from there.

Nancy: [00:13:14] Well, you know, I’m a perfect example personally. I mean, I was the worst networker ever.

Nancy: [00:13:19] I didn’t know how to do it. I was scared to death and, I had no, I didn’t have a, you know, any credentials behind me other than from my first, my previous industry, which had nothing to do with. What I was gonna be working with lawyers at all. The first event I ever went to with professionals with a, you know, a law, you know, was a, a legal, marketing conference.

Nancy: [00:13:39] And then I went to accounting conferences. I mean, I, I remember walking and going, what am I doing here? And I just started asking. I really started working the room by learning how to ask the right questions. And once you started asking the right questions to people and started listening. It really made a huge difference because people started to actually engage in communications That made sense to me was we started to build relationships, but this is what it took, you know, and this is what I wanna share with people.

Nancy: [00:14:04] I remember the first event that I went into where I actually changed my, my paradigm before I walked in. I said, I’m going to completely clear my mind of anything about myself. I said, I’m only gonna focus on every single person and just listen to them. And it took away a lot of my fear. It took away a lot of my self-consciousness.

Nancy: [00:14:25] I started to really have fabulous conversations with people, and people gave me their business cards and me having to ask them for it. So I think that if you learn how to take yourself out of the equation first, which is not easy to do, I’m not saying it’s easy, especially for people who are professionals who are highly skilled professionals like lawyers and other professionals.

Nancy: [00:14:47] You’ve been trained in being the smartest person in the room and being a perfectionist. It’s hard to divorce yourself of that thinking. Yeah. But it helps. It makes a huge, it takes your confidence to a whole new level.

Steve: [00:14:58] Yeah.

Nancy: [00:14:59] And people wanna talk to you.

Steve: [00:15:01] Yeah. So I think what you’re saying is it’s not just about being proactive, it’s also about the mindset and the mind shift of.

Steve: [00:15:08] It’s not about you, right? It’s about the people you’re talking to and engaging with and, and, and again, the more people that you talk to and ask questions, the more they may like you and wanna, and you learn more, right? You learn who you I should continue talking with and maybe who, you know, who I shouldn’t.

Steve: [00:15:23] Um,

Nancy: [00:15:24] and, and they’ll tell you their problems too. And problems are the thing that actually lead people to engage you

Steve: [00:15:29] well. That and, how you can help them, even if they don’t engage ’em, right? Somebody says they need a CPA. Well, I’m not a CPA, I’m not gonna sell them CPA services, but geez, if I get ’em in front of a good CPA and they’re happy, right?

Steve: [00:15:41] That’s gonna reflect positively.

Nancy: [00:15:44] Ab absolutely. Being a connector is something that, you know, we hear a lot about it, but actually doing it effectively, you know, I’ve had a lot of people be connectors that send me a lot of people that have very little relevance to what I, yeah.

Steve: [00:15:56] Oh God. Let’s not shoot, I dunno if we should go down that rabbit hole ’cause you’ll, you’ll get me going.

Steve: [00:16:01] You’ll get me going.

Nancy: [00:16:03] Yeah. But my point is that if you become a connector where you’re really being strategic about it and you introduce the right people to each other. You become such a, such a valued person in someone’s network. They wanna talk to you. They love hanging out with you.

Steve: [00:16:17] Yeah. Let me give everybody a tip real quick on, on what Nancy and I are talking about.

Steve: [00:16:20] You think you have a great connection for me? Alright. You’ve got someone that’s in legal doing something and you don’t talk to me first. You just make an email introduction. You don’t know if I have a dozen people that do exactly what that person does. You don’t know how busy I am. You don’t know what my focus is.

Steve: [00:16:36] You just think you’re being. A great connector, but actually what’s going on behind the scenes is I’m kind of cussing you out because you’re taking my time away from business and away from things that are my priorities to go talk to someone that I can’t help. Maybe I don’t want to meet. You don’t know.

Steve: [00:16:54] So I got a referral this morning, someone from my podcast. Okay. Um, similar to Kur. Right? Said Steve, do you wanna meet Nancy about your pod? Y Yes. And thank you for talking to me first. And of course I wanna meet Nancy. Don’t just make the introduction because you just don’t know. And that’s just smart.

Steve: [00:17:12] It’s just, it just, it saves everybody, and don’t just keep sending people connections that you think are good. Now, if you wanna send business to people, you don’t have to ask permission for that at all. Right? If it’s the right business. But I, you with me on this.

Nancy: [00:17:25] Absolutely. In fact, I, the very. I’m so glad you brought this up, Steve, because I just sent a message to one of my lawyer colleagues because I have somebody that I want him to meet, but he knows somebody in that same, you know, uh, sector and I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna send her to him until I get his permission and I just did that.

Nancy: [00:17:47] So I’m waiting to hear back from him. Yeah, to your very point, you can really waste a while. You can make, you can irritate people unintentionally. Good point.

Steve: [00:17:55] Yeah. So, um, it’s, it’s, it’s not, you know, crazy. It’s just a matter of, of, you know, maybe sometimes coaching people to. You know who you wanna meet. And again, if, if they send you an introduction and the introduction isn’t spot on, you know, just, okay, so here we go.

Steve: [00:18:14] You ready? I’m gonna, this is legit. I’ve just pulled this up. This is an email I wrote to someone recently. Thank you for the kind introduction or thoughtful introduction to Michael. I’ll follow up with him this morning. If you wouldn’t mind, please run all email intros by me first before making them direction directly.

Steve: [00:18:30] Business is strong and I don’t always have time. To network or help folks being sent my way. I’m really focused only meeting with prospective clients and high profile rainmakers. Again, appreciate you and your networking prowess. Help the family as well. So I’m not being mean about it, right? I’m being pretty diplomatic, but I’m also coaching him a little bit subtly saying You’re the best, however you know.

Steve: [00:18:53] Let’s do this a little differently ’cause you just don’t know what’s going on with me behind the scenes.

Nancy: [00:18:58] I love the way you phrased that. We are so, we, we think very much alike and we appre, you know, this is a connecting of the dots kind of process. You have to sort of think it through before you just throw people at other people and yeah, intentions might be right, but we are very busy and we do wanna meet the right people that, so I am very much of the right people mindset.

Nancy: [00:19:19] Just the way you are.

Steve: [00:19:21] Yeah. Um, and again, um, but, but part of this, part of this is. You know, just understanding strategies and understanding, um, you know, networking best practices. And the thing that, that I would say and, and lawyers that are listening to this have heard me say it, maybe ad nauseum is, you know, become a student of the game.

Steve: [00:19:38] I mean, the way that you’re doing things now. Alright. You said earlier on earlier that no one was a worse networker than you. I would argue that maybe I was, and I started my book on networking saying no one has wasted more time networking than this guy. Um, but we’re not the same. Five years, 10 years, 20 years later than we were.

Steve: [00:19:55] Right. Why? Well, because we became students of the game. We listened to people, we went to presentations, we listened to books on tape, we listened, we, we did all this stuff to be in a position to, to continue to get better. And I don’t know that lawyers are doing that at the level they should. Hey everybody.

Steve: [00:20:11] You ever wonder why top executives and athletes are so successful? It’s typically because they have a coach, someone that is looking at them from the outside to identify their gaps, identify their potential. That’s what I do. I’m Steve Fretzin and I’m here to help you be that lawyer. If you’re interested in a free consultation, click the link below and we’ll get together and we’ll identify where you can make improvements to be that lawyer.

Nancy: [00:20:33] You know, that’s an interesting point. I think lawyers do have to do a lot of learning through. They need CLE, they have to constantly keep developing themselves. But they do it mostly, they do it in their legal practice. Yes. When it comes to relationship building and decision and building a business development, it’s a choice for them.

Nancy: [00:20:52] Right. Not everybody is required. To be a rainmaker. But if you, that’s something that you want, then you have to actually learn how to do that. ’cause it’s not something, any of us, I didn’t go to school in sales and they don’t teach it in law school and they’re not teaching it in college. So you gotta learn it and if you’re not gonna learn it the right way, then it’s going to actually inf you know, influence your business so Well.

Steve: [00:21:13] Yeah, I mean, if you’re worried, if you’re worried about time and then you’re gonna just basically throw away your time doing things ine effectively then are, do you really care about your time? I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the question. So let’s, let’s give a, let’s go. Let’s just give two or three really good tips on maybe where they should spend their time, how they should spend their time, and how did lawyers sort of figure out what their jam should be?

Steve: [00:21:39] Because there’s, there’s speaking and writing and networking and ba ba blah, and it goes on and on and on. But that may be overwhelming.

Nancy: [00:21:46] Okay, so this, I was just gonna say, here’s a tip. Another, here’s my, another one of my phrases. It’s DCA daily consistent activity, but daily consistent activity in rainmaking or business development is 15 minutes.

Nancy: [00:21:58] I do, I believe in 15 minute chunks. So 15 minutes a day, you send a few emails to people who are either in your referral circle or people you’ve met at networking and you wanna follow up with them, or you wanna just build a relationship ’cause you think. They might have, they might be really good. They have a good circle of influence.

Nancy: [00:22:18] Those are good people. Even if it’s just 15 minutes a day, another 15 minutes can be just right. You don’t even have to do posting, by the way on LinkedIn. All you need to do is follow the right people and comment on their, on their, on their posts, and we’re

Steve: [00:22:32] back where we started. That’s how you you got going with me.

Steve: [00:22:35] I was like, holy Mac girl. Nancy’s everywhere.

Nancy: [00:22:37] I like your, but I think it’s also a, a very cost of time effective way to do this. And it spreads the word and then you can add your own post. So, but 15 minutes a day, a little, maybe Monday, Wednesday and Friday you do, you know, emails and Tuesdays and Thursdays you’re doing comments on other people’s posts or maybe doing posting one day.

Nancy: [00:22:58] You know, you have sort of a strategy around it where it’s not taking this enormous chunk of your time. If you do it in bite-sized pieces, a lot gets, you can do an awful line in 15 minutes.

Steve: [00:23:08] Yeah, no, agreed. Agreed. And I think you want to consider what you enjoy where, where you feel there might be value in the time spent.

Steve: [00:23:18] And, and, and what’s gonna maybe be something you can do consistently? ’cause again, back to the beginning, you know, consistency. And so if you feel like you can do LinkedIn and post and comment and do it that 15 minutes, three days a week, make that your jam, make that your thing. If, if like, I’m presenting more now, like in the next two months.

Steve: [00:23:38] Uh, you know, than I have all year and, uh, conferences and all this stuff. And, you know, I love that I don’t, you know, I don’t do enough of it, but because I’m not a big, huge fan of travel, like I’m, I try to limit how much I travel for business. Um, but I’m gonna make the absolute best of it, and I’m gonna enjoy it, and I’m gonna build a lot of relationships and I’m gonna hopefully change some lives and stuff like that.

Steve: [00:23:58] So I think How do you, how do lawyer, how in your mind, do lawyers figure out what they should be doing in that 15 minute segment?

Nancy: [00:24:07] So you just brought up something so important that I wanna underscore too. What you enjoy. Like, I, I notice you do a lot of video, right? I, I’m a much better writer than I am a video or I, I don’t really love, you know, video as much as I like writing.

Nancy: [00:24:22] So I found that I could, you know, do some, maybe do some, carousels on LinkedIn and, and I do the, I do mostly writing. So if you’re a lawyer and you pr and you like getting on camera, you, you know, you could just literally get your camera and start, you know, sharing a tip here and there. Boom. Done. Five, it’s even five minutes.

Nancy: [00:24:40] And it doesn’t have to be perfect because people don’t expect these fully produced videos anymore. That’s not necessary anymore. Yeah. You find what you love. And so I think you just sort of sit down and strategize it either alone. It’s harder to do alone. I, I personally feel like we get more, if we collaborate with somebody, we kick it around having a, you know, either.

Nancy: [00:25:02] An accountability partner, or maybe you have a mastermind group that you wanna, I know you have a mastermind group. I would kick it around with your colleagues about what’s really right, but do what you love, what feels good for you, and, and then find your, find your thing and you will.

Steve: [00:25:17] Yeah, and maybe even, even take some time to just talk at chat GBT or AI to say, look, you know, I’m a lawyer.

Steve: [00:25:23] This is what I do. I’m looking to grow my law practice. Um, I hate speaking. I hate video, but I really enjoy writing and I’m trying to, like, it could maybe give you some thoughts and some ideas back about what some of the lawyers who feel the same way or act the same way that you do, um, what they’re doing.

Steve: [00:25:41] And again, depending on the prompts, you might get some pretty interesting, uh, feedback.

Nancy: [00:25:45] Well, that’s very, I, over the last year I’ve been developing custom GPTs for different aspects of business development. And my, my main guy is Leo. I created Leo and he’s got all of my stuff in there. So if, let’s say you wanna do a speaking circuit just for certain kinds of conferences or just for certain kinds of regional events.

Nancy: [00:26:06] Leo can actually find them. Leo can find the, program directors can find who is, who is making the decisions, how much this stuff, how much these events cost, whether you need to even be a member. I mean, there’s a lot that can be researched that you don’t took used to take, you know, days and weeks to figure all this stuff out.

Nancy: [00:26:24] But now we can do it in like 30 seconds. So I think you’re absolutely right.

Steve: [00:26:29] Awesome. Awesome. Alright. Well, we’re, I know how fast time has gone. It’s crazy. But let’s talk about Nancy’s big mistake. All right, lay it out. What happened?

Nancy: [00:26:37] I, when you, when I knew that you were gonna ask me this question, I made a decision to leave my corporate career, uh, well, actually I was thinking about it.

Nancy: [00:26:45] I had been in a long-term executive career, and I loved my industry, but it changed a lot. And I thought about becoming a coach. And I actually signed up for a course at the time, this is how long ago, it was the main, how to become a Coach Course by Thomas Leonard. It was, he was the founder of the whole thing.

Nancy: [00:27:04] And then I signed up for it and then I, I got nervous and I, I gave it, so it was two years later. Two years. And I wasted those two years ’cause I could have gotten a head start. It was like a, you know, it wasn’t. Killer. But it definitely delayed me and I, it took a lot to actually get the courage to go off on my own and put my own shingle out.

Nancy: [00:27:26] And I’m, so, I can’t imagine what life would be like if I didn’t do that. There were certainly a lot of other mistakes, you know? But I think that’s the one that I think, I think was really just demonstrates how easy it is to convince yourself out of what should be your direction.

Steve: [00:27:40] Yeah. Well, I’m going to glad that you were able to pull the courage.

Steve: [00:27:43] You know, to, to do it and, and, and fulfill it because you’re helping a lot of people and, and people that really need. What you and I are doing and, and how we’re helping in industry that’s, you know, grossly underserved, on the business end of the stick, coming outta law school and at the law firm level.

Steve: [00:27:57] So kudos on that. Let’s take a few minutes or few minutes. Let’s take about five hours and talk about our sponsors. No, let’s just, let’s take a few moments to talk about our sponsors rankings io everybody, if you’re looking to get things to the next level with your SEO, pay per click social media, uh, checkout rankings io.

Steve: [00:28:14] They are top shelf. The law, her podcast. That might be a good one for you. I’ll, I’ll maybe have you heard of that with, uh, Sonya? So Farmer? No. Okay. Well that’s a, we gotta change that now. You have. Thank you. So check out law her and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll talk to Sonya about seeing, uh, what her Thank you schedule looks like.

Steve: [00:28:29] You, um, and then legal verse Media, everybody. That’s, that’s a, a newer place to go to get great content on a more international legal scale. Uh, but check that out. I think you really enjoy it. Um, Nancy, people want to get in touch with you. They want to hear more about how you’re helping, uh, lawyers and law firms.

Steve: [00:28:45] What are the best ways to reach you?

Nancy: [00:28:48] Um, so I have a website. My LinkedIn profile is probably the most comprehensive of everything. It’s the easiest. And I’m, um, well, the only Nancy Fox, Y-W-Y-Z-E on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, and that’s really a great place to start. My website is Wise Rainmakers. Com slash rainmakers.

Nancy: [00:29:05] Um, I’ve got a lot of stuff. I’ve got a blog on there. And by the way, if you wanna contribute a post to the blog, I’m happy to look at that. I would love to have a chat with you. I have a FAQ on there and there’s a lot of good content, but I think those are the two ways to get a a, a hold of me. I am writing a book on rainmaking called Make Rain Like a Fox.

Nancy: [00:29:22] There we go. And I’m looking for interviewees. Um, and the book is really a combination of the mindset and the tactical and strategic on rainmaking. Putting those two things together. So I’m looking for interviewees, Steve. Well, I may

Steve: [00:29:35] Oh, me? Or you want to talk to Rainmakers

Nancy: [00:29:37] and Rainmaker and Rainmakers.

Nancy: [00:29:39] Rainmaker and Yes, I’m looking. Well,

Steve: [00:29:41] I’m, I’m, I’m a hundred percent on board, and I don’t know if you know this, but there’s a book called Be That Lawyer 101 Top Rainmaker Secrets, growing a Successful Law. Shameless, don’t mind the Shameless Plug. It’s just Happens. Um, you know, but, but this is, this is, you know, it’s, it’s one thing that you, and I have all this experience and knowledge in the industry, but then when you take.

Steve: [00:29:59] Rainmakers and, and the people that, that are just like you, the lawyer listening, um, that have had the hard times and, and had to work through it and figured out a way to, to make millions and to live that top, top le, you know, level lawyer’s life. It’s, it’s exciting. It’s exciting to hear that other people are doing it.

Steve: [00:30:15] And guess what? They’re not smarter than you. You’re just as smart as they are. They just figured out a system. They got a coach, they did something that you haven’t done yet, and that’s probably what may determine why they’re in the book and you’re not yet, but maybe there’ll be a part two, who knows? But anyway, but Nancy, that sounds fantastic.

Steve: [00:30:32] Is that, is that network like a fox that’s behind you? That’s so this is gonna be like another, like a fox,

Nancy: [00:30:38] yeah. Networking network. Like a Fox is obviously about. Meeting the right people. Yeah. And this is going to be about the entire rainmaking process Sure. In the era of AI and digital, you know, relationship building and all that.

Nancy: [00:30:51] But it’s really, you know, the mindset piece of it included in this is really where I got really excited about sharing something new around that. Yeah.

Steve: [00:30:58] Alright. Well fantastic. Well thanks for being a guest and thanks for, you know, being a fan of the show and, and, and my social posts and all that. And I’m hoping that there’s a lot more that you and I can collaborate on because, uh.

Steve: [00:31:08] We both live in a, in a, in a world of abundance and, and understanding that, you know, you know, there we’re stronger together than apart.

Nancy: [00:31:15] Absolutely. I’m so appreciative that you invited me on ’cause this is a great. Great conversation. You do a lot of great conversations. I’ve really been enjoying them and thanks so much for having me.

Nancy: [00:31:25] I appreciate it. Yeah, and thank you for your listeners for listening in.

Steve: [00:31:28] Yeah, yeah. They’re the best. And uh, I, I get people all the time telling me what kind of, what you’re saying, which just, you know, my, I ego aside, right? I’m just happy that. They’re getting, you know, as much value out of it. And I listen to my own shows too, by the way, and I’m still, you know, hearing it for a second time to pull out an idea or too that, that, uh, I can use or share with my clients.

Steve: [00:31:48] So, um, hey, thank you everybody for hanging out with Nancy and I for the last 30 minutes. Um, hopefully you’re working to, you know, be that organized and be that smart and be that lawyer, a confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. Talk again soon. Are you ever curious what’s really holding you back in business development?

Steve: [00:32:07] Sometimes it’s hard to see the label from the inside of the bottle. I’m Steve Fretzin and I can help you grow your book of business. Get a 30 minute free consultation with me. We’ll identify gaps, identify your potential, and let’s take it to the next level so you can be that lawyer. Click the link below for a free consultation.