Brian Hansen: Strategy, Niches, and Results for Law Firms

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian Hansen discuss:

• Planning before marketing
• Specializing in impact
• Prioritizing practical channels
• Using AI and content wisely

Key Takeaways:

• Lawyers should focus on strategy, clear goals, and growth plans before jumping into ads or SEO. Thinking like a business owner prevents reactive, scattered efforts.
• Narrowing focus to niches ensures higher-quality results and avoids mediocrity. Saying no to misaligned work preserves reputation and effectiveness.
• Local Service Ads, SEO fundamentals, Maps visibility, and strong reviews drive results. Smaller firms may rely more on networking, referrals, and credibility than on heavy SEO spend.
• AI accelerates work, but expertise remains critical. Authentic, experience-based content on platforms clients actually use delivers lasting value.

“We only want to do what we’re really good at… don’t do anything that you’re going to do with a C plus or a B minus.” —  Brian Hansen

Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.

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About Brian Hansen: Brian Hansen is the founder and CEO of Rocket Pilots, a San Diego-based digital marketing agency specializing in helping law firms grow through targeted SEO, Local Service Ads, and paid media strategies. Since launching the agency in 2016, Brian has focused on delivering measurable results, ethical practices, and client-centered strategies that prioritize real business outcomes over vanity metrics. With expertise in niche marketing, strategy-driven campaigns, and consultative client relationships, he helps law firms navigate competitive markets and achieve sustainable growth while sharing insights on legal marketing and technology trends with the professional community.

Connect with Brian Hansen:

Website: https://rocketpilots.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianghansen/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:26]

hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, and yes, this is the be that lawyer podcast. We are so, just so happy that you’re here. Want to just share a quick story happened to me recently, I was talking with one of my clients who had never posted on LinkedIn and heard a show specifically about LinkedIn just started posting. Not, I’m super lawyer, not, this is where I’m speaking, like actually shared something authentic and real about their life and how it related back to business, and got a tremendous amount of comments and shares and likes and that whole thing, and really inspired her to want to keep consistent posting. I know it seems like there’s kind of a great cloud of shit sort of in LinkedIn that’s going on right now, but people do recognize when there’s something real, real and helpful and educational in there. And so I want you to be that person that does that and make you know, be that change and be that lawyer. Well, I just want to share that real quick. Brian, what’s

 

Brian Hansen  [01:25]

happening, man? Everything’s good in my world. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, yeah. I’m so happy

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:29]

you’re here, and I do really appreciate your quote of the show. Good old Abraham Lincoln, he never falls short of a good quote, right? And this one is, give me six hours to chop down a tree. I’ll spend the first four sharpening the ax. That’s also similar to the other ones. Like, what does it measure twice? Cut once? Yeah, something like that. Anyway, welcome to the show and tell us why you love that quote so much.

 

Brian Hansen  [01:52]

Well, listen, I think in the context of kind of legal and marketing, I actually kind of feel bad for attorneys, right? They always have stuff just thrown at them and pitched at them, so they end up just jumping into stuff, right? Running a little meta, running a little Google ads, and it’s like, okay, okay, slow down, zoom out. How much time did you actually spend planning? Did that align to true north? Did that align to the quarterly goals and all that, right? So, yeah, it’s important to think things through constructively and get that plan before you dive in, right?

 

Steve Fretzin  [02:29]

I mean, there are even lawyers who don’t take, like, an hour or a half a day or a day to just think, to just like, you know, recognize that they need to think. They need to plan ahead. They need to just, you know, just take a little breath, step away and recognize like there’s inefficiencies, or there’s things that you that you’re trying to achieve, that you just can’t think about because you’re just in the grind, in that hustle every single minute. It’s just there’s no way for us to really function at any kind of high level if we’re just constantly on the move.

 

Brian Hansen  [02:58]

Yeah, 100% right. And that’s kind of the whole discussion around like, are you just in the weeds as like an operator every day, or do you need that reminder that, hey, actually, you’re a CEO, you’re an entrepreneur, right? You’re a business owner, right? And, yeah, it’s time to find some time for that higher level thought, even if you just have to force that habit, because it’s so critically important.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:25]

Well, and I’ve had a number of people come on the show that, you know, time management experts and different people, and this is not, certainly not rocket science, you know, just start getting comfortable saying, No, I mean, there’s you, there’s things you’re taking on. Whether it’s a conference you don’t want to go to or didn’t get results last year. It could be, you know, someone wants like, I just turned down. And I love, love, love. Who sent this to me, but she asked me to, like, write for something. And I initially, like, my gut was like, Yes, of course. I want to do this for you. I want to do this. And I’m an opportunist. And all this took me about a day to get back to her and say, you know, I think I was a little ambitious there. This is not with everything I’ve got cooking. There’s just no way that I’m going to be able to really give that a full effort. And so I’d rather say no than do something halfway. So this is all a good lead in to where we’re heading today, which is really about, you know, how do we automate things and how do we just do better and work less and get more? And I think, you know, AI is really helping for that. But before we take that step, let’s jump in and find out a little bit about you. Brian. Brian Hansen, the president of rocket pilots, everybody. So give us a little background. I mean, not you know when you were born, but maybe how you came to be in running your own, your own agency,

 

Brian Hansen  [04:34]

yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, and there’s this term kind of used in agency world, like you become an accidental agency owner, right? Because it’s not like you said when you were young, like, that’s what I want to do when I grow up. But like, for me, you know, I came from big agency world, and I just got that natural exposure to how, not just law firms, but how, you know, small businesses are kind of mistreated, you know, by the marketing community and nothing. Prepares them right for how to onboard whatever you’re doing, social media, marketing, you know, SEO, you know, whatever acronym. So really, like, my inspiration was just very simple and, like, wholesome. I just wanted to run a boutique agency that was honest, transparent, and then would just be kind of at the higher end of the market in terms of, like, expertise, right? Just like a really good shop that we can be, you know, out of our work, right? So, yeah, so I left big agency life and started on that journey. And, yeah, there’s been a lot of learnings along the way. It’s been fun.

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:37]

So, so just, just so people know as well, like, what are the main focus points of your agency? What are you? What are you and what are you not?

 

Brian Hansen  [05:45]

Yeah, I mean, we’re actually intentionally narrow, so we only work with law firms. We work with a few different disciplines, pi, criminal, family law, immigration, highest concentration of our portfolio is personal injury law firms. But no matter what practice area like, we only work with on ambitious law firms. So we’re looking for folks that are hungry for growth, if they’re just kind of happy where they are running a lifestyle business, good for them, right? I don’t have any issue with that, but we’re probably just not gonna be a great fit. Yeah, yeah. And then in terms of like service line, I have a framework I’ve developed called the attorney growth engine. So we consult law firms on a couple core areas that they need to be integrated into the business, related to growth, their tech stack, and how to convert prospects into clients, right? And then within that we just have a few services. Like, we’re really great at multi location SEO. We do some special things with local service ads that a lot of agencies don’t do, influence the algorithm. And then when there’s enough budget to go around, we do Google ads, but that’s all we do, right? So we only want to do what we’re really good at. And you already said it best, right? Like, learn to say no, and that was hard early on, right? When someone’s like, hey, you know, can you do my social media? Can you do my organic social can you do this? Right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. You say because you want the business, and then you learn that, yeah, just stick to what you’re really good at and build a reputation around that, and don’t do anything that you’re going to do with a C plus or a b minus. So yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:24]

So what are the so the main areas that are an agency would work on right now and tell me if I’m if I’m right or wrong on this would be pay per click if they just want to get to the top of Google. You’ve got SEO, where you get to try to get found naturally through content creation and just being kind of an expert in your space and putting out enough content to get found. And then the third now is, is AEO? Is that what it is with where you’re getting found on the different AI services like chat, GBT and cloud and stuff like that?

 

Brian Hansen  [07:53]

Yeah, yeah, AEO and GEO, yeah. I mean, I would augment it a little bit and say some of it is like, what order do you put things in United things. Joe, yeah, we kind of, we promote local service ads before Google ads, they just get a little bit more bang for their buck. They’re paying per lead instead of pay per click. So it’s just a little bit better. They tend to get cases a little bit more cost effectively. And then, like you said, SEO, right, very high value showing up in maps, depending on what discipline of law like for pi, like, showing up in Maps is extremely valuable. And then, yeah, you know kind of evolution, right of SEO, you have this new category of geo, geo slash AEO is a big topic, by the way, we can get deep into that, and then for us, like on the kind of broader consulting side, we’re telling them, okay, once you’ve gone deep, right into LSAs and SEO. Now let’s talk about Google ads. Because that’s a big mistake I see law firms make, right is they go into Google Ads too early, and they don’t go with enough budget, it’s kind of a random act of advertising, and it doesn’t

 

Steve Fretzin  [09:04]

always work. It’s also hard to compete, right? I mean, you’re a solo or three person shop, and you’re trying to compete against Morgan and Morgan and some of the bigger players in a very busy city. I mean, how? I mean, is it even worth doing SEO and AEO and those types of things in incredibly competitive cities.

 

Brian Hansen  [09:24]

Sometimes it’s not right. And then that’s why, like, I really like the law firms to make sure that they’re getting this consultative approach before they jump in. You know what I mean? Because, like, you know, these folks that are showing up with, like, these canned SEO plans, you know, pick from option eight. It’s like, stop it right? Like, just don’t get into that. Like, if no one is looking at that market and telling you what it’s going to cost in coaching you, then you don’t have the right person. Because, like, you say, if you’re a solo when you’re going after MBA cases and you’re in a highly concentrated city. Be highly populated, very saturated. You’re probably not gonna be able to compete. Let’s be realistic. I mean, is your review velocity going to be on par, you know, with the top three in math? No, it’s not. That’s okay. Just know that, yeah, make an informative decision and do other things, because there’s a lot of other ways to go

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:20]

then I and I think that’s, to some degree, what I advise, and where I come in is, you know, you’re spending, you know, 678, $1,000 on SEO as a solo heading into a major net, into a major city. It’s going to take you how long to catch up with everybody else, years. What’s the ROI on that? And how long are you going to pay eight grand or six grand, or whatever, a month. And, I mean, I just talked to a guy the other day he was doing that, and I don’t want to be the one to tell him, don’t do this or don’t do that. I just, and I was like, How is this person even validating there’ll be any kind of ROI on that? So I’m thinking for him, build up your website. Build up, you know, maybe, you know, make sure you’ve got a, you know, the good Google, you know, so you’re found on Google and all that, and get reviews, yes, but let’s focus on networking. Let’s focus on building strategic partnerships. Let’s focus on LinkedIn branding and building up sort of how you’re developing out your network of referral partners. Because you just can’t compete with you’re not and on SEO, nonetheless, not pay per click, at least pay per click. You can get there with SEO. You’re not, I mean, I think

 

Brian Hansen  [11:25]

you’re 100% on point with that approach, right? Because it in the the amount is such a subjective thing, right? Like that just depends on the lens. Like for that, for that solo, he’s like, ah, six to eight grand a month. It’s kind of a lot, but it’s like, okay, but like the firm at the top that’s been doing it for a while, that’s dropping 15 to 25,000 a month. How are you catching them when you’re they’re laughing you and you don’t even know it, right? So, like you said, well, back to the drawing board, back to the strategy. Let’s look at the grassroots efforts. You know,

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:59]

here’s something for you, though, Brian, all right, so let’s say that my SEO is kind of starting out. I just opened up my new firm a year ago. Can I get in and try to do something spectacular with the geo and the AEO to maybe get ahead and sort of skip SEO, but maybe do something to go straight to chat GBT and the AI systems to get found?

 

Brian Hansen  [12:21]

Well, it’s a great question. And I also like, how you opened the podcast, by the way, how you talked about some of the junk on LinkedIn? Yeah, because, like, I mean, oh man, and for someone like me, it’s turning

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:32]

a lot of people off on LinkedIn, because it’s turning into, like, everyone knows that they need to be there and they need to put stuff up, but the amount of crap that’s being put up is turning it into a wasteland, similar to, like, looking at people’s food on Facebook. For me, when I see someone posting their food that they’re sitting down and eating, you know, I want to put my face in it and or just take my hand, like, move it all around virtually. Anyway, I interrupted you. No, no,

 

Brian Hansen  [12:55]

no, you’re fine. Like, the problem is now everybody’s got a product that they spun up, you know, they vibe coded something, and then they’re posting on LinkedIn with misinformation and these scare tactics, right? And it’s like, if you have been around for a while, you know that Google is absolutely still king, right? And some of the stats are in, like, some of the stats on, like, you know, MBA searches, for example, it’s like 97% on Google and like, 3% on chat. GBT, when you start to get into more informational stuff, like, you know, family law and like divorce, you see those shift a little bit. And then also, you don’t want to ignore something, right? That’s evolving. So what is that those statistics going to look like in three to five years? Right? That’s something we want to pay attention to. But something really important I want to communicate on this topic is that most of the items, the tactics, the strategies that you need to do for good Geo and AEO are grounded in best in class SEO tactics, right? So we’ve yet to see this like kind of decoupling, right? Where, where someone can, like, properly articulate like, no, no, you do these things for AEO and geo that you would otherwise not do for SEO. So to answer your question, not really, right, but they can still start getting involved and start, you know, getting involved in content engineering and, you know, thinking about the future and pay attention, right? Because I say that today, in March, 2026 but who knows, right, in six months, we might have this roadmap that just looks a little bit different, you know, for showing up in the llms, yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:48]

I mean, it might be interesting for a lawyer in a particular market to go into Claude, chat, GBT and some other ones, and just like, say something or write something that they you. Would be looking for as a buyer of that particular service, just to see what happens, and is it just the same as SEO? Is it the same, you know, listings that you’re seeing on page one and two, and I don’t know that might be a good interesting side. Might be an interesting project like side by side comparison, that, in fact, right now, it is no different. Or, Wow, like people, because people are saying, like, I’ve never had a call before, but I just got a call because someone found me on chat. GBT, yeah, and they’re not, they’re not really, like, doing SEO. They’re maybe they’re at a big firm, like they wrote an article, and that’s all it took was that one thing to get them found.

 

Brian Hansen  [15:35]

Yeah, I know it’s interesting. And in like, a couple examples, like, you know, there’s this concept of, it’s called chunking, right when you create your content and it’s putting it in sound bites and answering the question, like at the top right? So there’s these people out there saying, like, Oh, this is, like, something that you have to do for the llms, right? But then if you have, like, really experienced SEOs, they’re like, well, we’ve been doing that right? Like, we we already, like, restructured content, like semantic search, readability, like UI and, like, you know, like, all this stuff. Or they’re saying, like, oh yeah, but you got to show up on Reddit, right? Because Reddit is showing up on the first page, and it all gets cited by the LLM. So we’re like, are you talking about barnacle SEO? Like, showing up on a site that’s already showing up, right? So this is kind of like, and I don’t want to call it like a debate, because we shouldn’t be like, divided on it, right? It’s just like, it’s an evolving technology. We’re all paying attention to it. But I do think one thing to answer your question more directly that they can do is when they produce a piece of content, focus on something called information gained, right? So, information gained is the tribal knowledge you accumulate for being in the trenches in your craft. You have it from your consulting that you do with lawyers, that you do all the time, right? You’ve come up with these little nuances that you could have only learned by doing what you do over and over again. We have it right by doing this nuanced content engineering for lawyers. Lawyers have it right by working these cases and coming up with different strategies right to represent their clients. So this is the information that you’re not just going to go, like, get on Claude or Google, right? So it’s this kind of, like specialized knowledge that they can start incorporating into their content that will make sure that they stand out right, and stand out on the SERPs and the llms and things like that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:42]

So, yeah, really interesting. Yeah, I got, I just saw so much about like, sub stack recently, and I was like, I told my assistant, I’m like, we have to, like, start posting everything we have on sub stack. And you know, it never really, it never really happened, because I got, like, a squirrel, I got distracted. But I’m like, there’s all these things that pop up Reddit and sub stack, and it’s like, how do you know? Like, is it good for all? Is it? Is it some are better for for some purposes than others? I mean, what’s your take on content creation and the fact that is, it should only be put on the internet once? Or is sub stack the alternative to that? I don’t Can you, like, explain how that all works?

 

Brian Hansen  [18:20]

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I think really what we’re talking about is like, where are your prospective clients, right? The one thing I always kind of enjoy talking to personal injury attorneys about right, is like, where their motor vehicle accident clients are and what their user behavior is, right? So we just know for a fact, from tracking, from click to case, and like attribution, modeling and CRMs and stuff, right? We know a lot of these folks do a search from mobile, right? So the device is mobile, the search engine is Google. They’re going to maps. Sometimes they’re not even clicking through the website, right? They’re just calling from Google business profile, yeah, and then we see the case sign. So, so knowing that information right is like, okay, don’t, you know, Chase shiny objects and go, you know, post all the time on Tiktok and all this stuff, whatever, because this is where they are, right? So it’s kind of back to the sub stack, right? This from my perspective, and I’m not an expert in these, like paid subscription email newsletters, but that’s like your your more sophisticated reader, right? Someone who’s engaged in the learning, willing to invest in their education, right? That’s like the sub stacks of the beehive, and that’s the of the world. So no matter what type of business you have, if that’s not, if that doesn’t align with your ideal client profile, then then ditch it, right? Because you’re just going to end up, you know, spending time on all these different platforms, because God knows, we have enough of them now, right? So, okay, yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:56]

Hey everybody. Steve fretzen Here and@lawyer.com they. Don’t just market law firms. They help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com Check them out today, with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today, Hey everybody, it’s Steve fretzen as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year. So, all right, so in my mind and in the lawyer’s mind, they’re like, All right, look at what’s going on with AI. Look at how much we can already do, and it’s only gonna get better. Does that put the agency out of business? Right? Because AI can tell us based on your site and who you’re looking to target, and all these things. This is, you know, what you should spend, and by the way, we’ll just spend it for you, and everything gets automated. So then does that I’m, you know, just like with lawyers, that’s not going to put them out of business, yeah? But is that they’re maybe they’re thinking right now, is that they may not need an agency, when, in fact, that may not be the case.

 

Brian Hansen  [21:42]

Yeah, I do think there’s some of that, you know, thought going out there. And as a people, we seem to always go to like, the extreme, right? It’s like SEO is dead. SAS is dead, because we have vibe coding, fire, your agency, right? We have all this stuff. So you know what I’m seeing. And I’m going to go ahead and use the analogy with Claude code, right? Because this is this amazing technology from anthropic where we can, you know, code things locally, and it’s amazing, right? So is that going to put coders out of business? No, right? Because you need the operator if you just let that thing run wild, you’ll end up with a mess in the in the the app or whatever you were coding isn’t going to work. So it’s the same thing with the agency, right? Whether you’re engineering content, automating your Google business profile using a little app you vibe coded for your tech SEO, right? If you don’t have somebody with experience keeping that, you know, acting as kind of the guardrails, you’re gonna end up with a mess, right? And I think we’re seeing that also with Google ads and big data sets, right, and using AI agents to look at it, but you still need the expert. And, like you said, same thing with lawyers, right? Like, if you’re doing a big M a deal, right? And you got a lot on the line. Are you just gonna upload that to your Google gem or your custom GPT? That’s a contract lawyer, and just hope everything’s go goes, Okay, we’re gonna have a real attorney look at it and protect you throughout the transaction, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I think that’s where we are. Well, you know, you’re

 

Steve Fretzin  [23:21]

putting yourself out there as someone who is consultative, someone who cares about the clients, and someone who’s kind of calling out the marketplace that there’s a bunch of like, charlatans and people who just hang a shingle and now they’re the marketing agency, or they just figure out, hey, if I put three, three numbers on a screen and what you’re going to get, like, I can get that deal or whatever. And I’ve been burned. I mean, I have horror stories, you know, heading back, you know, over 20 years of getting burned and paying exorbitant amounts of money for stuff that that didn’t work at all. How should lawyers and law firms go about identifying the better players and the players who are totally above board and that are actually going to get them results? Because it should because it shouldn’t be paying $10,000 and then maybe you’ll see something in year two, right? There should be an ROI, and it should be significant.

 

Brian Hansen  [24:10]

I agree. Well, first of all, I think they should be careful, right? And there’s a lot of kind of, like, for lack of a better word, like support groups out there, right, where you can, you know, join these masterminds, you know, work with you talk to their peers, right? Yeah, what are you guys using? And you know what? And if you meet an agency, you know, not through like a warm referral, just ask them if you can talk to a client or two.

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:39]

Yeah, get some gifts. Gets. I always give references out for my business, not because I think it’s always necessary, but I also like to get, by the way, feedback on the people that are looking to work with me. And I’ve gotten feedback from some of my clients, like this person is going to be difficult, and here’s why, or I don’t know how this person’s going to be able to work with you, because. Are so committed to getting to, you know, 2500 hours a year, and staying to that number? Well, there’s no way they’re working with me at 2400 2500 hours a year, it’s not going to happen, right? And so, but I think that’s one of the most important things, is talking to references. And also, you know, I think watch out for the people who over promise. I mean, there’s all these people buy 15x your money, 100x your money make you millions. And they do these ads and these videos, and they’re like, these very, you know, excited, energetic people. And I’m like, that’s, that’s old school selling, right? That’s the sizzle of the steak when it passes by your booth and you go, I want a steak, right? I just smelled it. I’m using all my senses. But in a reality, those are typically the ones that I’d be careful about,

 

Brian Hansen  [25:44]

yeah, me too, these kind of outlandish claims, right? And also, like, I think we’ve kind of moved past the stage of like, showing off, like these vanity metrics. You know, I’ve seen these like marketing presentations that show these like grabs for like traffic and stuff. And it’s like, all right? I mean, really, like, we have more sophistication in marketing now, right? We can talk more about case acquisition cost per case, like, what mediums are working the best, right? So if you’re a law firm and you’re sitting through one of these presentations, like, that’s kind of what you should be asking for, right? Like, oh, hey, they do good work. You have some case studies, like, let’s talk about that, right? And not kind of these, like, vanity metrics of, like, you know, clicks and likes and comments. And it was like, no one really cares. It’s not, not really, like, linear to revenue, right? Yeah, yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:40]

Well, and I think you also have to, sort of, you know, see how they conduct themselves in the sales meeting. Was it, was it a direct pitch, or did they actually, you know, spend, you know, 6070, 80% of the time asking questions and really understanding your why, understanding your goal, what are your challenges? What’s not working, you know, what kind of return you’re looking for. So sometimes it’s the bedside manner that you have to really pay attention to as well. There’s a mix. But I think that that, to me, is a part of it. The one I want to work with is the one who I think cares about me and and my future and my situation, that if they’re going to take my money, that they’re going to do something positive with it, and I’m gonna, you know, look, if they’re playing the long game, they want you to be successful, because you stay with them and you refer them if the you know otherwise, you know they’re not gonna be around too long.

 

Brian Hansen  [27:30]

Yeah, I agree 100% right? And then I also think just that alignment on what they’re looking for and what the what service is being offered, right?

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:39]

Don’t, don’t see everyone as a nail, and all you have is hammers. Like, you know, there’s, there’s, you know, if SEO isn’t what someone needs, and it’s going to take them five years to get to page 12, you know, maybe don’t sell them SEO, right? Maybe, maybe, you know, say this isn’t a fit. This isn’t what you need right now. Be okay, you know that. I hate to say it, but like, you know that’s that’s that no one does that. Everybody thinks everybody’s a fit and they just want to get the money. And it’s the totally wrong way to do

 

Brian Hansen  [28:07]

business, I know. And it’s actually such a rewarding reaction you get. Like, when you tell someone, like, Hey, I understand your requirements. Like, I don’t think this is going to work, and this is why. Or, yeah, they are like, Oh my

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:22]

god, yeah, that’s how you know someone’s the real deal when they do that, because it’s right. Otherwise it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, you’re just getting into, you’re getting into, into a money grab relationship. It’s not going to end well. So, all right, well, let’s talk about something completely different. What’s Brian’s big mistake?

 

Brian Hansen  [28:40]

What’s Brian’s big mistake? It’d be a fun one. Well, ironically, it’s probably some of the things that I consult clients on now, right? It’s kind of funny, but I think, listen, when I first started, I just tried to do too much, right? So we had too many different verticals we were serving. You know, we had assisted living, we had addiction recovery, we had some like construction. We had attorneys. So we had we had that we weren’t niche down enough, and then the product line, right? It was just the green behind the ears running an agency and saying yes, too often, kitchen sink, kitchen sink, really? So then you’re doing organic social media for a bathroom remodeler. You turn around and do a Google ads campaign for an addiction recovery facility that requires, like, special certifications and stuff. It was just like, man, you know? So, yeah, it was just, it was just a big mistake, right? And I just learned the hard way, that if you’re going to have a successful agency, and you’re going to grow it, you know, hit your revenue targets and stuff, you got to be specialized, right? Yeah, I wish I knew that from day one, but it’s okay. I got there

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:50]

everybody you’re hearing this first, if not for second or third, the riches are in the niches.

 

Brian Hansen  [29:55]

Yeah, exactly, right. And even when you hear that, though it’s like, I almost feel like. You need to experience the pain a little bit. I agree. I agree. I understand. I’m 100%

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:05]

on board. I’m not gonna share my big mistake, but it was, you know, running four businesses, three offices, massive overhead, okay, trying to do everything. So with you, 100% on that. With you, 100% let’s take a moment. Thank our amazing sponsors, lawyer.com, I don’t know if you ever go to pimcon with Chris dryer. He put on a great show. I know there are some pi conf firms that go there, because you guys might be dealing with different markets and stuff.

 

Brian Hansen  [30:29]

I haven’t been there. I’ve been to pilma, but pilma, okay, yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:33]

I’ll show you. It’s a first class experience. Man. It was incredible last year. And he just runs a first class experience October, 4 through sixth. Everybody this year. Legal broadcasting company, you know, blowing up, finding good podcasts to toast. If you’re someone that’s interested in a podcast, check out the legal broadcasting company. That’s where this show is syndicated. And lastly, if you’re a rainmaker, you’re a managing partner, and you’re feeling alone and isolated and you want to be a part of a rainmaker roundtable. All you have to do is DM me on LinkedIn, email me. Steve@fretzin.com walk you through what’s involved, what’s included, and see if there’s a good fit there. Brian, people wanna get in touch with you. They love everything you said, and they go, this is the guy for me. How do they get in touch with you?

 

Brian Hansen  [31:17]

Yeah. I mean, easiest way is just to go to the website, rocket pilots.com Give us a call, fill out a form, or I can also be found kind of browsing LinkedIn, and, you know, respond to any messages on there. So another good way to contact me.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:32]

Yeah, awesome, awesome. And a shout out to Ted debencourt for introducing us. What a good and kind introduction. And he’s a rock star he was on a few weeks ago. Well, thanks, man. I appreciate you coming the show. I mean, I’ve got a bunch of great, great video clips we’re going to create on YouTube and and, you know, give as much value as I can. But, I mean, a lot of we may have to go back and add, like, a directory of, what does geo mean? What does SEO mean? What’s an LLM like, for the lawyers that are like, that was a whole lot of acronyms in there, little directory at the bottom. No, it is, but yeah, yeah, it was fun. So agency talk, agency speak, yeah, man, I appreciate you. Thanks so much cool. Well, listen, thank you and thank you everybody for hanging out with Brian and us for the last 30 you know, again, you know, not everybody’s involved in SEO and all this, but even big firm lawyers should be producing content and putting things out there that help you get found. It’s just kind of the you’re either playing the game or you’re sitting on the sidelines. And I’m a big fan of you know, folks getting out there and playing the game, getting published and getting things out there and getting found. So with that, I want you all to know it’s how important it is to be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, be safe, be well. We will talk again very soon.

 

Narrator  [32:45]

Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.