Brian LaCien: Growing Your Practice Through Relationships

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian LaCien discuss:

• Building systems that create consistency
• Growing your practice through relationships
• Learning through mentorship and mistakes
• Knowing when to push and when to stop

Key Takeaways:

• Every case is different, but your process should not be. Strong systems like checklists and workflows help you stay organized and reliable, especially in long and complex litigation.
• The best cases come from trust, not volume marketing. Building genuine relationships and staying visible in the legal community drives consistent referrals and long-term growth.
• Becoming a great trial lawyer requires experience, guidance, and room to fail. The right mentors and real courtroom reps shape your skill far more than theory alone.
• One extra question can hurt your case. Great lawyers understand timing, knowing when they’ve made their point and having the discipline to stop.

“Every case is different, but how you approach it should be really similar, so that you may not remember doing something six months ago, but you know you did it because that’s the way you do things.” —  Brian LaCien

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About Brian LaCien: Brian LaCien is a trial lawyer and co-founder of Smith LaCien LLP, where he represents individuals in complex personal injury and wrongful death cases. With nearly two decades of experience, he has built a reputation for handling high-stakes litigation with a disciplined, detail-oriented approach rooted in strong case strategy and preparation.

Before co-founding his firm, Brian spent 17 years at a leading plaintiff trial firm, where he developed his skills under experienced litigators and gained extensive courtroom and deposition experience. He is committed to the civil justice system as a way to hold powerful institutions accountable and advocates for his clients with both precision and persistence.

Connect with Brian LaCien:

Website: https://www.smithlacien.com/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Brian LaCien  [00:00]

This is really important to build habits and structure about how you approach things. Every case is different, but how you approach it should be really similar, so that you may not remember doing something six months ago, but you know you did it because that’s the way you do things.

 

Narrator  [00:21]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin, hey

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:43]

everybody, Steve Fretzin, and welcome to the be that lawyer Podcast. I’m just so thrilled that you’re here today, as you all know, and you’ve heard me say maybe many times that this is a show all about helping you be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. One of my favorite things, Brian and you’re adding to this is I have a true and deep passion for interviewing rainmakers, for interviewing people who have, you know, who can you can open up the hood, take a look inside, and really kind of figure out, like, how does this whole business of law thing work? And so I know I interview a lot of experts, and, you know, digital and AI and all these other things, and those are fun. But when I get a rainmaker and someone that’s built a beautiful built a beautiful practice, it gets my engine going. So welcome to the show. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks. All right, all right. And so let’s jump in with your quote of the show. And this was very long. I think you and I agree. We can truncate it down, and here we go from the movie The verdict. If we are to have faith and justice, we need only to believe in ourselves. Fantastic, man, tell me about that and why. That’s your quote of the show.

 

Brian LaCien  [01:47]

Yes, so in modern society, it’s the civil justice system, and the jury system is one of the great equalizers in society, because it’s hard for one person to have a voice when another person has millions of dollars behind them. But when it comes to the justice system and the civil justice system, 12 people decide, and they hear each side’s position. Each side is represented by counsel, and they are equalized in front of the law, in front of the jury. I just think it’s one of the last vestiges where people can be put on equal footing with large corporations and other types of entities. Yeah, and

 

Steve Fretzin  [02:31]

these days, not that we’re going to get into any politics, because we’re not, but like these days, like this is the only thing you know from Armageddon. It’s only keeping keeping us, you know, in check in our world afloat at this point. So I give praise to it. I’m a huge fan my father. You may not know this was in practice for 40 years, and I just know that justice was the most important thing to him. And, you know, playing for the little man, right, helping out the people who didn’t have the big checkbooks, just the same way he would with the big checkbooks, didn’t matter to him. He was all about justice, just like what you’re suggesting. So really, really great, yeah.

 

Brian LaCien  [03:05]

And again, not getting into politics, my politics, or yours, the this sediment of the civil justice system, and in picking jurors and talking to people, it cuts across both sides, yeah. So on both sides of the aisle, no matter who you vote for, who you think is the most you know the best president, whoever was president, there are a lot of people that are very pro civil justice, pro like having the jury system and letting regular folks decides people’s problems. So it really isn’t a red blue issue, as far as I can see.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:42]

Yeah, wonderful. I agree. Yeah, a great equalizer. As you said, everybody. Brian lesne is the founder of Smith lesne. LLP, thanks for coming on the show. And give us a little background how you came to be in developing your own your own law practice.

 

Brian LaCien  [03:56]

Yeah, so, born and bred, I practice here in Chicago, Illinois. I’m born and bred in the Chicago land area. One went to school out of state for a little while, came back, went to DePaul, I guess I’ll give them a shout out there you go for law school, because I knew I was going to practice in Chicago. Worked in politics for like a hot minute, and then went to work for a large, well known plaintiff trial firm did that for about 17 years, and then one of the partners and myself, Todd Smith, is my partner now. He was my boss back in the day. We then left and started our own practice about one month into covid. So that was its own interesting situation, yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:41]

So what was that, and what was the impetus to your Start your own gig? Like, that’s not for everybody, but I always want to hear the, you know, a founder

 

Brian LaCien  [04:48]

story, yeah. So it was to, you know, for me, so I’m not going to speak for him. For me, it was to control your own destiny, to work on the types of cases that you want to. Work on to work with people you want to work with. I worked through that 17 years. A lot of the cases I worked on were with him, so we had a very comfortable working relationship, and we had ideas about how things should be done and what kind of cases to work on. So it was just a natural progression. I kind of learned that in that 17 year period, I had the privilege of working with some really good lawyers and learning a lot, but then it was kind of at some point you’re gonna have to step out on your own.

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:30]

Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, not every lawyer is built to be an entrepreneur. However, I try to impart on this show that whether you’re in big law or you’re a solo or something in between. You know, whatever umbrella you’re under, it’s still you Inc, right? You like, you say control, I say control, freedom, independence. These are things that lawyer are now, you know, more than ever, thinking very strongly about how their career is and what the future looks like no matter what happens, you know, in the economy and AI and everything, you got to kind of take control. When did you sort of figure out, maybe not just building your practice, but like having your own clients and kind of taking control when, when and how did that play out?

 

Brian LaCien  [06:08]

That was actually to for me, in all honesty, it was later in the game than it was for for most so I had a strong interest in learning the trade and or the profession, and working under really good lawyers who knew how to try cases, and learning how to try cases yourself, and working up highly complicated cases to get them ready for trial, whether they went to trial or resolved. And so that’s where a lot of my focus on, I would say, you know, I know the mistake. Thing is, at the end, I think looking back, if there was

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:46]

one, we don’t rush the big mistake.

 

Brian LaCien  [06:47]

Brian and I know, no, I’m not gonna, I’m doing, I’m giving a little bit of preview. Okay, in all reality, I think looking back, and the advice I would give to your younger self is to be a little bit more of a work on the Finder, stuff like when I got out of law school, the thought process, especially for some friends that went to big firms, you know you’re going to be a minder, a finder or a grinder. And you know you say it, fast forward 25 years, 24 years, it’s getting harder and harder to be grinders, because you know you’re going to get married. You may have kids, you you want to live your life grinders. That means you always you got to be married to the office. You got to be dedicated. You know, finders is its own dynamic, because it’s the person who’s getting a business. And then very few of us, not really in the personal injury space, but sometimes in large firms, you could be the minders. You know, you’ve got some unique knowledge, but that is the less than one percenters most of most people find fall into the grinders or finders categories.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:49]

Yeah, and what I mean, what I’m finding in interviewing and evaluating lawyers, you know, literally every day, is that, you know, because this wasn’t taught in law school, because this wasn’t taught at the law firm level, that lawyers get frustrated just having to be out there, a, doing it and B, like, having to figure it out, and the time and investment it takes to like, fail and fail and fail because they don’t have a proven system. They don’t have a coach in the corner. Obviously, there’s a reason I’m in business doing this, but it but I hear that. I hear the frustration every day with the fact that this is a whole other side of the business that no one really signed up for right out of law school, but yet it’s now turned into a pretty important aspect of it. So what are the things that you found yourself doing to start building up your own base?

 

Brian LaCien  [08:35]

Yeah, so one thing is, you know, I guess it’s, I know you talk to all types of lawyers in all types of practices. And, you know, I do plaintiffs, you know, personal injury work. And, you know, part of it is, a large part of it is your network, you know, I think I have friends that, you know, I’m knocking on 50 now that are more on the corporate side clients. It’s a little bit different on how client find lawyers in that side, because they have resources and able to be fine. You know, who’s the lawyer in this city that can handle this problem? I represent everyday folks. And so everyday folks see billboards. They see, you know, busses. They see internet ads. You know, if you have a medical problem and you search it on Google, depending on the medical problem, you may end up with five lawyers advertising, sure. So, you know, the personal injury space has undergone a lot of changes. It’s for us. You know, we’re not a and there’s nothing wrong with being a volume shop. We are not a volume shot. And so we have a, you know, we’re growing, but at the same time, the cases we handle tend to have a little bit more depth via the catastrophic, you know, more in the catastrophic category. And so it’s really showing that you can work on and. Get good results and fair results on sometimes, some tough cases. And what I found is cases kind of find their way to you, yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:09]

but I’m but I yes and no, I mean, I, what I would suggest and put back to you is that, and you tell me, if I’m wrong, I don’t think I am, is that you’ve developed relationships, right? Yes, you’re not spending the 10 million a month on billboards you’re developing, you’re doing, you’re going under the radar through building a business, through relationships, the true business development angle versus the high ticket advertising angle,

 

Brian LaCien  [10:33]

yes, yes, yes. We’re not, you know, we don’t really advertise. We have a website, if you want to call that advertising. And we do some pretty basic things, and most of it is through networks, through lawyers that my partner and I know or and that’s where 80 or 90% of the cases are coming from. Yeah, and it’s someone contacts a lawyer. It’s the old fashioned way they might contact their cousin’s divorce lawyer or their, you know the lawyer who set up their estate five years ago and say, Hey, this happened to me, or this happened to a loved one, or this happened to my son, you know, is, do you know someone that can help me? So that’s where the vast majority of our cases, it’s, I would say a little bit. I know you guys, you want to be on the cutting edge. It’s a little bit more of the old fashioned way of doing things, or the more classic way of doing things. But in the nature of this practice, it’s still, especially in Chicago, the way it’s gotten done. Yeah, there’s been changes. I mean, I remember 15 years ago, I was down in Florida and Texas, I’d see lawyer billboards everywhere. There’s nothing wrong with it, no.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:35]

And by the way, you know, don’t misunderstand. You know, my nature. My nature is, you know, BD classic, like I’m all about, you know, how do we develop deep relationships with clients and strategic partners and other lawyers? And right, this is, and then, and then, how do you know, we demonstrate our expertise, we demonstrate our fantastic culture, our professionalism, in the way that we way that we behave and handle ourselves. And I think that sounds like a lot of what you’re doing and how you compete differently than the ones that are just throwing money at

 

Brian LaCien  [12:09]

it, right? And I’m not here to criticize throwing money at it. I’m just, it’s just, there’s different ways of it’s

 

Speaker 1  [12:14]

a different strategy,

 

Brian LaCien  [12:15]

different strategy. So it’s more through the networks, through word of mouth. And you know, sometimes it’s, you know, referrals from other personal injury lawyers that may not work in a certain area, that you know, they don’t do malpractice, or they don’t do product liability work, and then they might ask us to help on a case. So it’s more in the old fashioned sense of just of word of mouth, yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:40]

is there just out of curiosity, is there a business development habit that you found yourself doing that that allows you to continue to develop that network and get the referrals coming in?

 

Brian LaCien  [12:50]

Yeah, it’s, you know, this is so cliche, but it’s, it’s to stay engaged, you know. You know, just stay engaged. You know, like now that you have your name on the door. You know people work. You know, with you, you they can go to court. You don’t have to. But I just find for a variety of reasons. You know, even if it’s sometimes a simple matter that somebody else can go, it’s important that you show up, you be there, even though there’s another lawyer who’s working on the file that is perfectly capable of doing it. So it’s whether it’s simply being in court, simply being at events, because, you know, Chicago is a large city, but in a large legal community, but when it gets down to it, it’s a small circle of people that you normally see. So it’s networking, meeting people, staying engaged. Yeah, you know, they’re 15 years ago. I had one of the defense lawyers on a helicopter crash case. He was always like, he’d come in town and be like, Hey, do you want to grab dinner or something, you know? And he was a defense lawyer against me, nice enough guy. And his his big thing was, if, if you’re out of town and you know, you’re sitting in your hotel room, that’s a wasted opportunity. You should try to go out to dinner with somebody and meet with you don’t know what you know is going to come next. And he always thought like, if I’m working anyways, I might as well, why am I sitting in my hotel room eat the hamburger. You should go out to dinner with someone, or meet someone, or go to event, because, you know you’re it’s just wasted opportunity.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:11]

Yeah, no. Spot on. Spot on. And so, you know, I think there’s also something to be said about the brand of a firm and the ones that can demonstrate not only winning, but then that they’re just like, you know, elite among a number of other firms that are maybe more mediocre, middle of the road. How have you defined your firm and being kind of in the upper, upper tier of pi firms in the city?

 

Brian LaCien  [14:35]

We’re growing. We I, my partner and I came from a larger, very well known firm. We started our firm in 2020, I think we built, we had good reputations as lawyers, and we built a good reputation through a firm. And, you know, Chicago was blessed. I would tell any client that was interviewing me that, you know, there are the lawyers in town that do very good jobs. And, you know, I. I never have an issue when a client or potential client wants to talk to one more than one lawyer to see who they feel comfortable with, because ultimately, it comes down to sometimes with a client who they feel most comfortable with. Because there are very, you know, Chicago has some very good personal injury lawyers.

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:14]

Yeah, right on, right on. Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here and@lawyer.com They don’t just market law firms. They help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com Check them out today with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today, hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. So what are some business development habits that you know you mentioned engaged, but there are other things that lawyers do and that need to be consistent on in order to make sure that they’re, you know, keeping things moving ahead that could be marketing, business development, AI, just different things to delegate, automate. What are some things that your firm has done that have helped you guys stay relevant? Yeah, and

 

Brian LaCien  [16:49]

that’s really staying on, you know, the changes since we started the firm. You know, AI is such a term that people just throw around now, and it’s to stay ahead of the technology, or at least stay abreast of it. When it comes to AI, there’s a lot of promise. I don’t think it’s quite arrived yet. There’s some really good programs, but there, I think there’s still some limitations. But I think in the next two to three years, you’re really going to see them, it really take hold of the practice and really be able to do some things that are going to free up a lot lawyers time. So one is technology. Two is, you know, we talked about networking. Two is just good habits, you know, that you form in practice that will enable you to be better. Because as you become more senior, and I tell this to the lawyers that I work with in the office. As you become more senior, you’re more and more responsibility is going to be put on you, and it’s really important to build great habits at work. And I know the point of this is really outside of the office, and, well,

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:56]

not necessarily. I think there’s, there’s more to to to to building a business than what you’re bringing in. I mean, right? What you’re doing inside the business could be as important, or, if not more important, than what you’re doing outside.

 

Brian LaCien  [18:09]

Yeah, and it’s just really important to build habits and structure about how you approach things. Every case is different, but how you approach it should be really similar, so that you may not remember doing something six months ago, but you know you did it because that’s the way you do things, right? And it’s really important to fall back on it, because, especially when you’re in cases that are 4050, depths deep, is really important to make sure. And what we do isn’t check the box. But in your own mind, you will know this is how I do things. You know, I would have done that. And you know, you’re not panicked and scrambling and looking back at what you did seven, eight months ago or even two years ago, because some of these cases go on for three, four years. Yeah. So, you know, important habits, and then also it’s I tell people, or at least I try to is try to put yourself in a slightly uncomfortable situation once in a while. And I’m not talking about doing something that you shouldn’t be doing, or maybe doing too much when you don’t have enough enough experience, but like, really, it’s, it’s putting yourself in positions that are slightly uncomfortable, because as you get more experienced, you know, you’re not growing if you’re just doing the same thing, yeah, and so it’s, it’s just trying to just get outside of your wheelhouse. And I found in my career that is really, really been beneficial to me, because you learn something new. And, you know, I just think that’s important, because you don’t want to get stuck in the old way of doing things, because it just becomes a rut, and in some ways, it becomes a crutch.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:52]

Yeah, I agree with that so much in the you know, making mistakes, putting yourself into uncomfortable, trying new things. Yes, I’ve got lawyers that have never posted on LinkedIn, and they really sort of despise it. It’s just a big, disgusting mess of crap. And I try to explain to them what, what people are searching for, and what LinkedIn is searching for is content that’s that’s positive, that’s educational, that’s authentic, that makes people think, that makes people like learn something and enjoy reading it, where you kind of read the first three sentences. You’re like, this is actually pretty good. I keep reading it, and then I get them to post once. I get them to post twice, three times, and they, they typically give me an email back saying, Wow, I didn’t even look at this engagement. I just, you know, had or I just this, just got picked up by one of my clients. Just had something picked up by a major publication and quoted him. And so, you know, that’s the discomfort of new and by the way, I’ve got some new things going on in my world, in my business, and they’re scary as hell, but I’m like, pushing through. It’s just, it’s just, it’s hard, but that’s, that’s what needs to happen. Um, I was going to hit you up with something a little different, because we were talking earlier about culture, and it sounds like you’re developing a really positive culture over there. And there’s a lot of firms that, you know, I rag on because they their culture is, you know, horrific. What defines a good culture? And how are you developing your people? That’s really, I think, what I’d love to have you

 

Brian LaCien  [21:18]

share, yeah, and it’s, you know, it is the practice of law. So people make mistakes. You know, there’s certain mistakes that can’t get made. You know, there’s you know, things you know or should not get made. Yeah, there’s always got to be, you know, guardrails on on things. But like, you got to understand that lawyers coming up are going to make mistakes. And even you, you don’t ask every question. You wake up in the middle and I think, and I didn’t ask that question. So you got to accept your own limits. And the biggest thing about and is just trying to get people to understand there are things that have to happen and or cannot happen, but at the same time in between that, there’s a lot of stuff where you’re learning, you’re gaining knowledge, and you’re never going to do it perfect, you know, you know that is just, you know, it’s just not, it’s not going to happen. You just have to really fight for your client, and, you know,

 

Brian LaCien  [22:26]

achieve results. I mean, I hate, there’s, you know, there’s another thing about, you know,

 

Brian LaCien  [22:37]

the quote I hate about being a personal injury, like lawyer or being a lawyer in general, it really wouldn’t apply to personal injury lawyers is like, well, you know, when someone says, Hey, can you do this? And they say, I try, and the response is, well, you’re not getting paid to try. You’re getting paid to win. You know, I hate that, because, you know people have to not to sound rah, rah, but like you got to understand, as a lawyer for your own mental health, that you know, because this profession, whether you’re personal injury lawyer or not, it can, you know, consume you, and it unfortunately, has with lawyers sometimes, but is to understand that you need To do a good job and do your best. And sometimes that’s just not going to be enough for a variety of reasons, sometimes beyond your control. Yeah, now it’s the worst when it’s something you know that you see that in hindsight. Oh, maybe if I would have done it this way, but, um, you know that’s just really important. I try to with the lawyers I work with is that they got to be accepting of and then they got to learn from it. So then you don’t, because you know cases, you know, again, I don’t mean to be previewing the last but like, you know cases that I’ve been involved in where you did not win, is some of the best learning experiences. Yeah, 100% 100%

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:02]

second, last question I have for you, and what we’ll sort of wrap up with that with our secret last question that we haven’t talked about yet is, you know, you not at a not at a super, you know, I don’t 45 years old or just, you know, decided to go out on your own with a partner and all of that. What advice do you give to young lawyers who want to build a serious trial practice, again, that could be going out on their own, or that could be where they’re currently housed? Yeah? So, I

 

Brian LaCien  [24:29]

mean, again, I’m speaking out on both sides of my mouth, but I’m you’re talking to lawyer, so you’re

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:35]

supposed to say it depends.

 

Brian LaCien  [24:36]

Yeah, it depends. You know, I you know, the part of it as a young lawyer, I think it’s really important to network, but a large part of it is to try to work somewhere that will give you, if you want to be a trial lawyer, that will give you trial experience. Yeah, some pipe people do it through the state attorney’s office. Some people do it through the public defender’s office. Because some people do it through non for profits, where you are going into court and are taking depositions. Now, all of those have positives and negatives, but it’s getting you experience in that area of the law. The way I did it was, I was fortunate enough to work in an active practice with some very good lawyers, some of the best, actually, and learn how it’s done, you know, and be able to work with them and see how it gets done. And I think early on, that’s the easiest thing I you know, I see, I see lawyers who are successful open practices early and granted, they are successful in doing it, but it’s just really, really hard to organically become a really good trial lawyer. Most trial lawyers that you see, you can see that kind of, you know, I don’t want to compare it to sports, but they always talk about the coaching trees in the NFL, like, you know, most trial lawyers, they worked under other very good trials.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:01]

You got to have a good mentor, right?

 

Brian LaCien  [26:03]

Yeah, it’s, it’s hard to do it organic, you know, you’re just gonna, yeah, you know, I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s just difficult.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:09]

I get that. I get that, all right. Well, listen, we’ve been waiting for this for 30 minutes, so let’s have it. What’s Brian’s big mistake?

 

Brian LaCien  [26:17]

I’ve been thinking about that, and

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:19]

I’ve been waiting for it for 30, almost 30 minutes.

 

Brian LaCien  [26:22]

Now, the big mistake you’re asking a plaintiff lawyers is big mistake. It is. Let me just the best thing I can say is it’s a category, and this is such a I feel like it’s almost a non response, but it’s not meant to be. Is, you know, when I was just talking to someone, and that’s this was coming up. And I thought of it that like this would be the best example I could come up is when you’re at a trial or even in a deposition, because, you know, granted trials are, you know, there’s only so many a year, or every other year, depending on the nature of your practice is, and so often it comes up in depositions as well, is that you ask that extra question, because, you know, when we’re in a deposition, we’re at trial with deposing a defense expert or a defendant, and you think it’s going well, and you’re getting it, you’re getting it, and you pretty much got it, yeah. And you want to go that extra step, because you just got to be a pig, yeah, yeah. And you just got it. And there’s just, you know, there’s a multitudes example, whether it’s an engineer who gave you stuff, and then you want to go that extra and you know, you would have now, now let me tell you why. And then he, you know, you know, you open the door to unwinding a lot of the what you just spent an hour and a half building, yeah, and so, you know, the big, I don’t know if it’s the biggest mistake, but mistake that I run into, and I still work on it in my career, is learning when to fold it up and go home in a case, because you know every you know, in trial, like every witness, you want to win, every day you want to win, and you’re doing so well, and then you’re just saying, like, I can get it. I’m gonna go that little extra. And then it just kind of hurts you. And, yeah, it’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:19]

almost like, Brian. You’re like, marching someone to the end of a cliff, and that’s just, all you needed to do was have them look down at the void, and you’re just, like, pushing them over. It’s one too many that made it happen.

 

Brian LaCien  [28:30]

Yeah, yeah. One too many. And it’s just, it’s, I don’t know if it’s the biggest, but it’s the for me, it’s something that I deal with because you just, you’re trying to build something for your client that you represent. You’re just trying to do the best you can, and you’re if I just get a little

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:45]

bit more, but that’s the experience of knowing when to stop, right? Like eating, like, there’s a point where your body and your mind needs to just, like, stop. This is too much. I know it’s delicious, but just but in questioning and in other parts of our life, right? We need to have a point where we stop and just say I’ve gotten what I needed or what I wanted, this is going to get me there, right? And I don’t need to keep going and I get that. But I think the takeaway too is like you have to learn, like you’ve gone over the line and it didn’t work out well, and that learning is the key, right? You’ve that the big mistake is the learning from it, and that’s what it and that’s what it

 

Brian LaCien  [29:22]

sounds like you took, yeah? And sometimes it’s, you know, it could be a multiple things. Sometimes it’s when you’re on a in a trial, it’s learning when to sit down, yeah, just to sit down. And sometimes it’s not really, the witness doesn’t do anything to hurt you, but the jury’s looking at you like, All right, yeah, we get it, so now we’re ready. Enough out of you. Enough, enough. Put somebody else on, sit down. You’ve talked enough. Oh man, you know, like we get

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:47]

it, you know, all right. Brian, well, listen, man, that’s awesome. Of course, have to take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors. If you haven’t checked out, lawyer.com get listed there. Get some business in the door. Rankings. Io, in. A for, you know, SEO and everything, top, top player and PIM could you go to PIM con? You ever do that in Scottsdale?

 

Brian LaCien  [30:07]

I have not had the, Oh, that. Put that

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:08]

on your list. Check that out. Pimcon, the personal injury mastermind conference in, I think it’s in Scottsdale. It’s in they just did it the Venetian last year. Oh, my God, first class experience. And then, of course, for lawyers who are running firms are that are equities at firms and are running million dollar books, The Rainmaker roundtable, everybody. This is where you go to collaborate with other top rainmakers, business owners, to feel like you’ve got a team and a family out there that’s just for you, to help you make strategic decisions and all of that. So check that out. And Brian, people want to get in touch with you. They want to network with you. They want they want to check out your website. What are the best

 

Brian LaCien  [30:44]

digits there? Oh, sure. It’s smithlessine COMM, and then all the contact information is on there. Yeah? Awesome, awesome.

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:53]

Well, thanks for coming on the show sharing your wisdom. I’ve got my typical page of notes and a bunch of great video clips I’m going to put up on above the law attorney at work, and I think coming up soon, National Law Review is picking up the podcast, so we’ve got a lot of a lot of great publications behind us, and hopefully we’re adding value for their audiences too. But I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. All right. Thanks so much, Steve, yeah, and thank you everybody for hanging out with Brian and I for the last 30 and change. You know, again, hopefully you took some good notes, and you’re doing more than you need to do to be that lawyer, confident, organized and that skilled Rainmaker. We talked about it. Take care, everybody, be safe and well, and we’ll talk again very soon.

 

Narrator  [31:37]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.