Jason Stiehl: Relationships Over Sales – How Real Connections Build a Legal Practice

By Steve Fretzin on May 7, 2026

What does it really take to move from overworked service partner to trusted rainmaker—without feeling salesy or inauthentic? In this episode, you’ll hear a candid breakdown of career missteps, relationship-first business development, and how patience and consistency can transform a legal practice.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jason Stiehl discuss:

Transitioning from service partner to rainmaker
Relationship-based business development
Honesty, trust, and cross-marketing inside a firm
Content creation, podcasts, and visibility for lawyers
Career mistakes, firm moves, and learning from missteps

Key Takeaways:

Developing a real book of business starts with owning client relationships directly, not just doing great work behind the scenes.
The most effective business development feels less like selling and more like building genuine, long-term relationships based on trust.
Honesty about what you and your firm can and cannot do is a powerful differentiator—and sometimes means referring work elsewhere.
Consistency in follow-up, presence, and outreach matters far more than one-off networking “sprints” or scattershot emails.
Before making a big firm move, dig deeply into culture, capabilities, and expectations; the wrong platform can cost time, clients, and momentum.

“You have to go to different markets. You have to go to different people. You have to realize that if the audience you’re reaching is the same all the time, you’re never going to grow.” — Jason Stiehl

Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.

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About Jason Stiehl: Jason Stiehl is a partner in Crowell & Moring’s Chicago office, where he focuses on class action defense and trade secret protection. An experienced trial lawyer with a nationwide practice, he represents clients across industries in complex litigation, including consumer class actions, advertising disputes, and intellectual property matters. Known for immersing himself in his clients’ businesses, Jason develops strategic defenses to protect their most valuable assets, from brand reputation to proprietary technology. His work spans high-stakes domestic and cross-border disputes, and he has been recognized for his role in securing major dismissals in consumer fraud class actions.

Connect with Jason Stiehl:

Website: https://www.crowell.com/en/professionals/jason-stiehl

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-stiehl-22a82b4/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin [00:00]

Hey everybody, before we get to the show, really big announcement for you. This is one of the most important things I’ve done in nearly two decades of working exclusively in the legal industry. It is the be that lawyer community, and it’s officially live today. This is a global platform designed to help lawyers become rainmakers, grow their law practices and take control of their careers. And it’s built for individuals just like you who want more. And it’s also for law firms who want to bring real business development coaching and training to their teams with a strong return on investment. Inside you’re going to find a massive library of content, practical courses, live events and direct engagement with rainmakers from around the world who are there to answer your questions and help you grow. Membership is only 699, per lawyer. It discounts available for groups, and for a limited time, April 15 to April 30, you will get that deal as a founding member at that special rate I just mentioned, you have two weeks take action. Be that lawyer.com/community I’ll say it again. Be that lawyer.com/community to sign up today. Hope to see you there. And by the way, enjoy the show.

Announcer [01:11]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode your host, author and lawyer coach. Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin, hey

Steve Fretzin [01:33]

everybody. Steve Fretzin, and welcome, welcome. Welcome back to the be that lawyer podcast. You’re new to the show. Welcome, happy that you’re here. You’re going to get a lot out of this show and a lot out of today, or your money back. So there’s no such thing. So that’s that. But if you’ve been a longtime listener, I want to tell you how much I appreciate your support and in listening to our show week after week, twice a week, and getting everything out of it that you need to be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. And you know, my goal is to not disappoint it today will not you will nothing to be disappointed, right? Jason, we’re going to give him a

Jason Stiehl [02:04]

show. I hope so. Yeah,

Steve Fretzin [02:05]

no pressure, man. Well, listen, let’s start now. Right off the bat, I’ve gotten like, I’m so sick of like, Maya Angelou and all these different, you know, Peter Drucker, all good quotes. I’m not going to put them down. They’re make magic. But occasionally people have a quote on the show that I go, Yeah, all right, I can dig this one. And so I’m a big Grateful Dead fan from back when I was 1819, and getting lost at a dead show. Not I’m talking literally. I got lost at a dead show, and I was, I was under the influence of a few things. So that was not a, not a happy moment, but the show was great. Here’s a Jerry Garcia, Jason, I want to read it back to then tell me what it means to you. Once in a while, you get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right. And I totally screwed that up, but you get the gist. So that’s, that’s in a song, right?

Jason Stiehl [02:53]

It is, it is, I’m glad you’re asking me to think it, because that would be worse. Yeah, no, I Well, that’s always it’s been one of my favorites since high school, too. For the really, I think it’s a good reminder that we spend a lot of our time so in the weeds about things that we miss, the moments and the meanings and things it requires you kind of take a step back and look at it from a different perspective. So

Steve Fretzin [03:16]

yeah,

Steve Fretzin [03:17]

I agree. I love it, and you know it’s there’s so much that we should be grateful for, and I don’t know that we practice gratitude enough and see the light, because there’s so much that we have going for us. I know sometimes it’s hard to it’s hard to not feel sorry for ourselves when we have pressures from work, or pressures in life, or one of my clients just told me that she’s got to get a kidney replaced. It’s like all this stuff coming out. I’m having surgery tomorrow, like all this stuff happens to us, but I think I said to you when I told you about my surgery, I’m like, there was a time in my life where I had no arms. I broke both of my arms, and having one arm is so much better than not having any arms that I don’t think people can really appreciate that unless you go through an exercise where you spend a day with no arms, let alone a month. Well, anyway, we could push that on, but let’s move on. I’d love to introduce everybody. Jason Stiehl, the office managing partner at Crowell and mooring, welcome to the show, and give us a little bit about your background.

Jason Stiehl [04:10]

Sure. And thank you for having me. I love the show, and I love the idea of kind of sharing wisdom amongst our practice. I feel like it doesn’t happen enough. So thanks for having me. So I’ve been a practicing lawyer now for a long time, 25 years this year, and it’s been a long and winding road. I started off actually as a plaintiff’s class action lawyer for five years working under what was at that time, my mentor, Clint krislov, who became kind of infamous or famous, depending on which side of the bar you’re on. But I learned a lot, and I really it was invaluable in that I kind of got thrown into the into the pit, right? I was immediately writing complaints, immediately taking depositions. I got to argue into four or five appellate courts my first two or three years, so things I never would have gotten in a big law firm experience right out of the gate, I had the pleasure. Manager of arguing against a colleague at seifarth. They were defense. I was plaintiff. After we settled the case, he invited me to join sivarth. I was there for a decade, and loved my time there, and then went through a couple other firms and landed here at Kroll, where I’ve been for about four and a half years now. And obviously love it, love the people here. And my practice has pretty much stayed the same. I do mostly class actions. Still. I just do it on the other side now, although I do some plaintiff’s work as well. And then I added, while at sci fi, I do probably about 20 or 30% of my practice is what I call kind of SBA, corporate espionage counseling, so trade secret, restrictive covenant and just general kind of corporate hygiene when it comes to assets.

Steve Fretzin [05:45]

Yeah, that’s

Steve Fretzin [05:46]

more and more rare that I get to interview someone in Chicago too. We’re just, we’re so all over the place. But it’s wonderful that, you know, have that Midwest, that Midwest feeling back. So let me ask you this. You There was a time in your career where you were, you’re hustling and doing the work and you’re learning the law and everything. What sort of stage were you in when you said, You know what? There’s something to like having my own book or building my own client base? When did that happen for you?

Jason Stiehl [06:11]

Probably about five years into sci fi. I think when I got to really know some of the partners better, and got to really talk to them about how they got to be where they were in their careers. And then, frankly, I got the point where I was developing some business and not seeing the fruits of it and realizing that, you know, I really needed to kind of set out my own stake and figure out where I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. So just a kind of a confluence of selfishness and selflessness. I think, honestly, to brought me to the idea of, like, it’s important to start developing relationships more directly,

Steve Fretzin [06:44]

yeah, and that’s and so, yeah, it’s just sometimes an internal cultural, you know, warnings, right? Come out and it says to you, you know what, I’ve got, you know, four bosses. I’ve got all those clients counting on me. I’m basically someone’s, you know, lap dog. And, you know, I don’t mean that again, for some people, service attorneys, and you’re working with people you love and everything, and it’s a big, you know, love fest, that’s great. But for a lot of lawyers, they recognize the limitations of us or being a service partner. And how long can you really keep that up? And now we’re adding in AI and unknown, you know, recession that may be hitting our hitting us soon. What’s your guarantees? There aren’t any, right?

Jason Stiehl [07:22]

Yeah, and, well, frankly, it also just isn’t as much fun, right? If someone’s just telling you what to do all the time and you’re just spitting answers out, you really are not much more than a machine, a very good one, and well trained one, probably. But the relationships is what the job is all about, in my opinion. So, you know, it’s hollow without it,

Steve Fretzin [07:39]

all right? And that’s, and again, I can’t argue with that. It’s the reason I’m in this space, doing this work. And you know, the greatest joy and pleasure I have is hearing, you know, someone that steps outside of that service partner thing and starts hustling to better themselves and to better the clients they’re going to end up working with. So but that transition is tricky. How did you pull it off? Because when you have the pressures of the firm and everything on you, and then you’re starting to bring in your own stuff. There’s a transitionary period I want to explore with you for a few minutes.

Jason Stiehl [08:10]

Yeah, I know. I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself, because I think it’s also going to feed into your last question. For me too, of mistakes I’ve made, but the moment, I think that was kind of the the eye opening moment was my main partner that I was working with at the time took me under his wing, and really kind of showed me his clients, gave me access to his clients in what I thought was a development of me and our relationship. And it was for sure, but to your point, at some point, I think he realized, and I realized that, like, this relationship wasn’t going any further, right? It was almost like a dating where, like, this has been great, but like, we’re not growing anymore together. And so, you know, I took a leap of faith, and I left the firm hoping that I could take my skills and what he had taught me and kind of do it myself. And it was scary. And I will tell you, the first couple of years were tough, but then you learn that, you know you got to trust that you’ve learned the things you need to have to go out and do what you were doing before, and that you’re a good person, and people will see that, you know, ultimately, but

Steve Fretzin [09:13]

it wasn’t going on your own. It was jumping and going to another firm where what the culture was different. The support was different. They understood business development was important to you, and they supported that.

Jason Stiehl [09:23]

There was some naivety. Let’s put it that way. When I left the firm I went to was growing in Chicago. They just opened offices here, and they were looking for someone who had, was an established litigator, that had established book of business. All things were true about me, but they were looking for somebody to basically help grow their practice. And but yes, I definitely use another firm. Ultimately, I felt like I was by myself, and that’s you know, so I moved on. But

Steve Fretzin [09:47]

okay,

Steve Fretzin [09:48]

yeah,

Steve Fretzin [09:48]

and then you found the right home,

Steve Fretzin [09:50]

yeah,

Steve Fretzin [09:50]

all right. So yeah, let’s just fast forward a little bit, right, right? So then, all right, so now you’re on. You’re at a firm that’s supporting you with the business development. Endeavors. And then did you have a strategy of how you’re going to approach it to start building?

Jason Stiehl [10:04]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know, maybe strategy is too strict or overboard. I had loosely had an idea of what I wanted to do, which is, I really wanted to focus on food and beverage in the class action space. I really enjoyed the clients I worked with. I really enjoyed the kind of law that I was practicing, and so I worked really hard to start going to conferences, to get to know the in house counsel, frankly, to get to know my competitors better, to see how they done and how they grow in their business. And I just really, I would say, got more holistic. I had previously looked at business development as a, you know, identify a target and go out and hunt for it and kill it. And that was failing. It just wasn’t because it’s too hard, right? We have a very robust market in Chicago. Class Action is very difficult, a lot of very smart lawyers, and we’re all fighting for the same business. And so I realized that, like you’ve got to have a different way of going, at least I did a different way of going about it. And My way was very much getting to know people, letting them know who I was, and hoping that they would see that as something different, something unique.

Steve Fretzin [11:05]

So just just more relationship focused, not about going out and selling, not going out and targeting, but me who I mean, were you’re meeting with people that were somewhat strategic, or were they and then getting to know them and just not rushing it, but having an actual relationship and letting it sort of like, like, almost like dating, you don’t, you know, hey, this was great. Meeting you tonight. Let’s get married, right? There’s a time that it takes to get to know someone and realize, you know, there’s a fit there,

Jason Stiehl [11:30]

which is, yes, 100% like, that is the and that is the hardest part, especially in our profession, because there’s an expectation of performance every year, right? It’s like, as everyone talks about, the clock starts over every year, and so you’ve got this drive to show up, but it takes a long time to build trust, to build the relationship, and to show that you’re not just, you know, a commodity. Frankly,

Steve Fretzin [11:52]

one thing that I’m regularly talking about is people that are just out meeting and building relationships, but they’re not recognizing the importance of advancing other people’s interests. And I just it’s not the easiest thing to do, by the way, because it takes thought, it takes effort. It takes time to make connections, to include someone like I saw I was in a networking thing today, and I said, this guy who wants to get out and do cles and all this, I go, you know, Hey, man, I’m friends with someone who runs, you know, like panels, where you could be in running a panel and doing, like, multiples of those a year with this big audience of 1000s of people. Does that sound interesting to you? He’s like, Oh my god, yeah, that’s great. You do enough of that kind of stuff where you’re just out for everybody else and whether you like it or not, like good things. And, you know, I always joke like, this is Radiohead Not, not like karma police, right? The Karma completely come and take you away, because you’re doing so much good in the market and so much good for others. And I don’t know that lawyers recognize that as a strategy, but do it with heart, like, do it with like, you know, good intentions. Don’t do it just as a means to an end.

Jason Stiehl [12:53]

That’s the I mean, I think everyone looks at it as a business, and we’re told that, right, that law is a business, and it is, for sure, but it is that heart part of it. It is that connection that everybody wants it. We’re all human. And so at the end of the day, like you said, it’s, I would say it’s easier to go out and sell other people, but that takes work too, because you’ve got to know your people. You’ve got to know your business. And a lot of people don’t focus on that either. They’re like, I’m a class action lawyer. I’m going to study class action. And they’re not like, well, it’s so much easier to be like, hey, John’s a corporate lawyer. I can go sell him. I like him. He’s from Evanston. Used to run track at Harvard. Like, I got all kinds of facts about him. I can share and drop them every once in a while when I meet somebody from Harvard. For you know what I mean.

Steve Fretzin [13:31]

how do you know? How do you know someone’s from, from Harvard?

Jason Stiehl [13:35]

Is this a joke?

Steve Fretzin [13:35]

Yeah, because they’ll tell you in the first couple minutes of meeting.

Jason Stiehl [13:38]

I was gonna say

Steve Fretzin [13:39]

that. Come on. You know, by the way, love my Harvard people. I do too. I

Jason Stiehl [13:45]

do too. But that’s 100% true.

Steve Fretzin [13:47]

I went to Illinois State, it’s just like Harvard. I mean, it’s like, right? Illinois State, Stanford, they’re like, right there in this Harvard

Jason Stiehl [13:55]

in the Midwest, for sure. I’ve heard that

Steve Fretzin [13:56]

they should change their T shirts. I mean, that’s, that’s fine, all right? I was going to add, you know, you just bring up something really, really important. And I it’s not that you need to know the law in transactional litigation and all the different you know, varieties of practice areas. I think you said it. You need to know the best partner at your firm that does something that you know is good and smart and good, responsive, takes care of people. And if you know in class action, or you know in whatever area you’re in, that there are three or four other areas that tend to roll around that where people that have these problems tend to have these problems and get to know those partners, then yeah, now you bringing cross marketing into it on the regular, and who doesn’t like the best business in the world is business you bring in, get the million dollars. And guess what? You’re not doing any of it,

Jason Stiehl [14:48]

right? Yeah, exactly. And it will, and that you can trust and that, like you said, I think the best of it, and that’s important. I mean, that’s kind of my learning process of the firm. Kind of growth is that a lot of firms are very good. At some things, and then they try to sell others, and they’re not quite as good at it, yeah? And, you know, I think it’s important for people to find their platform and not oversell. And I think a lot of people oversell, and that’s where you get yourself in trouble, because you break down that trust when you’re like, Yeah, use my trust in the state lawyer like they were awful.

Steve Fretzin [15:16]

Yeah?

Steve Fretzin [15:16]

Well, Jason, something people know on this show, but you may not know, is, I’ve been teaching for over 20 years now a methodology called sales, free selling. So the last thing that I would ever teach a lawyer is how to sell. If you think about what lawyers really enjoy and appreciate, it’s developing trust in relationships, asking a lot of questions, identifying problems and needs and qualifying whether there’s a reason to take action or not, and is there the other people that you know? And if, again, if you tell me that you’ve got severe real estate issues and your firm sucks, and I have a great real estate guy in my on my team that’s not selling, that’s like you have a problem, I have a cure, you know. Let’s put two and two together and make some magic. And so I’m not going out and pitching right all these other things that our firm does this and this and this, I think that’s the misconception of why cross marketing can feel salesy or kind of ugly.

Jason Stiehl [16:09]

Yeah, I believe. I haven’t taken your class, but I am. I’m a convert. I’m an apostle of your of your belief, because that is, I mean, that’s the easiest way to do it, and because no one likes to be sold to, right? Like you think of any situation, you don’t want somebody rushing out and selling you a car. You want to get there. You want to develop the relationship. Walk around. And like you said, the biggest mistake people make is the thinking that the follow up, right? The second thing you do is sell. It isn’t it’s probably the 15th thing you do, and hopefully it’s something you never do, because it’s, they’re just going to come and say, Hey, I think you mentioned once you’ve got a partner who and then you just fill in the blanks, right? And that’s, that’s the way to do it,

Steve Fretzin [16:49]

yeah? I mean to make a friend and to ask a lot of quiet to build that understanding that, yeah, I get you. People just want to be gotten. They want to know that people understand them. In many cases, we’re looking for what I call our people, my people, right? I’m looking for people I can like and enjoy and trust, and you know, whether that’s a potential client, or whether that’s a strategic partner or or someone that just, you know, is it my firm? You know, I want to be around people I can enjoy. So that let me Yeah, I

Jason Stiehl [17:16]

was gonna say real quick on that point. The the my people thing is one of the like, it’s one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they see, you know, person, they see Jason, going out and meeting people, and they’re like, I can’t sit at a bar and share drinks. That’s not my thing. And it’s like, well, it doesn’t have to be your thing. Your thing could be going for a run and running into somebody on the beach or going, you know, out to for coffee or whatever it is. It doesn’t have to be the same thing. And I think that’s the big mistake, is it’s like people try to emulate as opposed to finding their own people.

Steve Fretzin [17:44]

Yeah,

Steve Fretzin [17:44]

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Steve Fretzin [18:27]

Hey

Steve Fretzin [18:31]

everybody. Steve Fretzin Here and@lawyer.com They don’t just market law firms. They help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers, to smarter intake and industry leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com Check them out today with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io, prides itself on proof, not promises, mentality, the best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today, can you break down if there was one or two things that you found to help you be super successful in building a book of business that you know, again, you have to give share all your secrets, but just something that you found really worked, not just to develop the relationship, but that took it further, where they were coming to you with their problems and saying, Hey, Jason, can you help us with this? Or, however, what, just, what are some things that you could just share with people who are maybe new to rain making,

Jason Stiehl [19:40]

yeah, I mean, I think you’ve, we’ve hit a couple of them, but I’ll dig into them a little bit more. One is honesty. I think it’s really critical that you should say if you can’t do something, tell them I can’t do it. And I think the second thing, and I’m happy to dive even deeper, is to know that you don’t always have to sell yourself or your firm again. It’s kind of, I guess that’s also honest. You, but part of it is to your point about the real estate, like, if it turns out that I think another firm in town will be so much of a better fit because they got better lawyers on that particular area, or they’re cheaper for my clients needs, or they’re quicker because we’re too busy, I’m going to tell them to go use that firm, not because I’m afraid of losing that piece of business, because I know that in the future, I’ll get 10x that at some point. And then I guess last thing real quick is, I would say patience. Like, I know that’s a hard thing to learn, but if nothing happens overnight, nothing, if it does, it’s not real. So you may get lucky once it’s a flash in the pan, you’ve got to just bide your time. And, you know, trust the process and believe, you know, call somebody up, reminding yourself to call them on their birthday, or to go, you know, drive up to Milwaukee and hang out with them, if they’re in, become friends first, and hope that later the business comes.

Steve Fretzin [20:46]

Yeah, yeah. It’s, you know, being honest and being authentic and knowing that, hey, look, there’s a hustle involved in business development. It’s not a, geez, I’m just a nice guy and I’m an honest person, and people are going to want to hire me. I mean, there, there’s a regimen. And just like anything, podcasting, marketing, business development, networking, there’s a consistency that needs to accompany the honesty and that as needs to accompany that the the 100% you know, the mindset of it. And I think when you put that together, and I would also add a system or methodology, I feel like most lawyers are just out winging it, and it works. You can wing it for years and build a book of business. I can’t argue that. And there’s lawyers all over the world that have done that for, you know, forever. My point is, if there’s a better way to do something, and you don’t have to figure it out yourself, whether that’s from a book, from a video, from a podcast, from a coach, whatever it might be, and you can learn one thing that’s going to save you time, money and energy and make you more efficient. Take it, take it, you know, and use it. It’s useful. And, you know, time is money, and for lawyers, you know, in particular, so, but, but what can you say about the consistency that you needed to put into it, to put to bring it all together?

Steve Fretzin [21:57]

Yeah,

Jason Stiehl [21:58]

that’s a good, a really good point, actually. And I always, I kind of forget that, because you got to get into the mode of it. Of it, of it after a while. But it may appear on the surface that I’m just, you just, you’re going out to a bar and meeting people, and then all of a sudden business is coming in, right? And it there isn’t there is the need to be consistent. Make that second phone call, send the email, follow up with substance, and be again. Be reliable. I think a lot of people you know do one of two things wrong at this point. They either gather to the winds, right? They’ll send 50 emails out to 50 people they met at a conference and hope that one bites, or they’ll send one email and then not pay attention for six months and it goes away. It does take a methodology to it. And I think what people forget, or maybe they just never think about the person on the other side knows what you’re doing, right? They’re a in house lawyer who has business to give away, and you are an outside lawyer who wants business. So yes, we are friends, yes, we’re doing things, but the end of the day, we met because we’re both in the same business, and we both have needs in the supply and demand moment. So, you know, be honest about that too. And they know that, like, it’s okay to break that kind of third wall. I think,

Steve Fretzin [23:09]

yeah, I’d love to get your take on this. I mean, there was a time and I’m going to go back. I’ve been working with lawyers for 18 years. I’m going back to, let’s say, the first 10, okay. And I’m really focused on business development, and business development and business development alone, a little bit of LinkedIn, just because I’ve been in that world a long time, but it was really about leveraging LinkedIn from a business development standpoint, not so much about marketing. Now I’m really of the ilk that it’s business development and content creation and marketing and thought leadership and branding and all that together, and I’m finding that the lawyers that I work with that that can stomach it, because it’s hard to stomach some of the stuff that we see, and then we don’t want to be a part of that problem, or a part of that mess, right? Like, I’m going to show everybody my and I apologize to anybody who does this. Kenny, you know, food on Facebook. I’m never going to show food on Facebook. I’m never going to go look at what I just what I’m eating. Look at how beautiful it is.

Steve Fretzin [24:00]

Like, yeah, but

Steve Fretzin [24:01]

there are things I put up on Facebook or put on up on LinkedIn that are educational, that are informative, that are useful, that have a point that have you know, somebody could take something away from and say, I learned something. I’m better now, because this guy had an experience. He shared, how do you feel about the combination of business development and marketing together? Are you doing that? Is that you feel strongly about.

Jason Stiehl [24:22]

I feel very strongly about it. I mean, we live in such a fast paced world where information disappears instantaneously, almost that you have to be present all the time. And that doesn’t mean obnoxiously too like I don’t need to push content out daily. It needs to have substance to it, but you need to use every channel that’s available to you to get yourself in front of people and know, let people know who you are as a person like let them know what you’re doing in the marketplace. And again, I think knowing you know it doesn’t have to be just that. Jason’s a good lawyer, but Jason goes to this restaurant is important to people. Jason reads these books is important to people. And so it’s just showing a whole. Holistic, well roundedness in that space, right? It’s LinkedIn, it’s, you know, it’s all the content providers. I think it’s important to be mindful of it again. You don’t want to be there forever, and you don’t want to, I mean, repetitively, because it gets to be like, ubiquitous, you don’t want to be that guy.

Steve Fretzin [25:16]

Yeah, it’s important.

Steve Fretzin [25:18]

I mean, we were introduced by my good friend, Scott love and you were on his podcast, and I asked him, I just said it. I was talking to Scott. Go, hey, is there a rainmaker that you that you really love, that you think would do well on my show? And he recommended you. And I think lawyers don’t realize that there’s, there’s a, there’s a treasure chest in guesting on podcasts. And I’m gonna give my reasons why. But what? Why do you Why are you interested in that? Why is that something you’ve been amount of? It’s just the two of us and that’s it. Or have you been doing more than that?

Jason Stiehl [25:49]

No, no. I mean, I do a lot of like, I mean, to me, they’re just somewhat very similar to speaking engagements.

Steve Fretzin [25:54]

Yeah.

Jason Stiehl [25:54]

And again, I’ll kind of slide off to it. I’ll come back to it. But the, I think a lot of people go to the same conference every year and expect something to change, right? It’s like, well, I but you have to, you have to go to different markets. You have to go to different people. You have to, you have to realize that the audience you’re reaching is not going to if it’s the same all the time, you’re never going to grow your pie. You’re never going to any bigger than who you are right now. And so I love podcasts because it’s a group of people, two people, I think listen to podcasts. One, a lot of in house people do because I think they’re looking to know the personalities of the people they’re working with. Two, I think other, my colleagues are listening. And I think colleagues are as much of a seller of you, even though they’re competitors. I think a lot of times my colleagues are ones that sell, that sell me, and refer things to me more than anybody, and so they’re listening to your podcast. They’re on your podcast. So I just think it’s a great it’s a great kind of channel for information and growth.

Steve Fretzin [26:53]

Well, it’s a way to expand your audience. It’s a way to expand your brand. And then the thing that we don’t really talk enough about, or should talk about, is the amount of content that’s created so just to share. And maybe people know this, maybe they don’t, but we have the audio up on all the major platforms for this podcast right then we take the video and we have the long form on YouTube. We have the short form. The short form goes in above the law. The short form. May go an attorney at work. They might go, you know, they go in the YouTube channel National Law Review. Then we got the legal broadcasting company that’s syndicating the podcast. Then the Blogcast goes to Scott’s rain making magazine, because we take the transcript and we take it and we make it into a Blogcast and just a very readable thing. And then this book behind me was created from 101 podcast. So we don’t really recognize that we’re struggling. Many lawyers don’t realize, like, there’s a treasure chest of content and and ways to repurpose it through guesting on podcasts or obviously having your own but it’s just we’re struggling to, like, figure out, what am I going to post today? You should have regular posts based on content you’re creating because of things that you’re doing that allow for content creation. So that was a long winded way of saying, create content.

Jason Stiehl [28:08]

Yeah, I agree. And create different content, which is what you’re doing, right? You’re not saying the same thing every day. You’re you guessed new ideas, and you’re expanding your point. You’re expanding your audience.

Speaker 2 [28:16]

Yeah?

Jason Stiehl [28:17]

Because every

Steve Fretzin [28:17]

show is different. Every show you guessed on, and every show that you that I host, is, did this show is completely different than, you know, the last one I did, you know. So, all right, you knew it was coming. We all love it. We plan for it. What’s Jason’s big mistake?

Jason Stiehl [28:31]

Leaving sci fi was a huge mistake for me at the time. At the time it was I did it for all of the wrong reasons. I did it for what I thought was, you know, growth, that I didn’t research well enough money that didn’t really matter that much, and I didn’t fully investigate what I was getting myself into. And so it was a big mistake. Like it could have gone way south, and I could have ended up I lost a lot of clients. Like it was just, it was bad all around and so but, and like the one that story you always hope to be able to tell, which is kind of pulling the Phoenix out of the ashes, right? It was such a learning opportunity for me. It really opened my eyes about how important it was to learn about the place you work, about outside the group, outside of where you’re going. Like, I’m a litigator, but I needed to know better about the corporate and real estate and everything else the firm did. I needed no reputation more. I just thought I could show up at any platform and just sell. And that’s not true. And so I really got a chance to kind of understand the law firm eco system more than I ever had. Because I got very lucky at cyfarth, where I was just like, plugging along. I was just doing it. And then I got outside, and I was like, it’s like, if you, like, left a spaceship, and all of a sudden you’re like, Oh crap, I’m in space, you know, it’s like. So it was eye opening, but it all turned out for the best. I landed at a great firm. It took some time that I grew and grew everything back bigger and better, which is nice.

Steve Fretzin [29:55]

Yeah. I mean, we got it. We got to take the hits to get up and know what not to do the next time. Time, right? So, and you’re, by the way, you’re sharing that, well, maybe give one lawyer that’s listening a pause, that’s thinking about their current environment, thinking that something’s much better, and do your research. Man, it’s probably not, you know, and 100% you know, just sure you dot i’s and cross T’s and know what’s really going on behind the blanket, because, or the curtain, or whatever it’s called, because that’s, you know, that’s ultimately, you know, where a lot of, I think lawyers make missteps. And

Jason Stiehl [30:26]

the people, like, we’ve been talking about, it really is about those connections. And if you get some place, like, I don’t want to be because silly people talk about, like, Would I go out and have a drink with this person? Like, if the answer is no, you’re probably

Steve Fretzin [30:38]

in the wrong. That’s how I mean, that’s, that’s our, that’s our litmus test, right there.

Jason Stiehl [30:43]

Yeah, right, maybe.

Steve Fretzin [30:44]

Well, listen, Jason, fantastic. Hey, how about if we take a moment and thank our sponsors. What do you

Steve Fretzin [30:48]

think

Jason Stiehl [30:48]

that would be great?

Steve Fretzin [30:49]

Let’s do it all right, here we go. Shout out to my friend Chris over at rankings, io, and an amazing, amazing pimcon coming up in October, just a first class experience out in the Venetian and in the Scottsdale area, we’ve got lawyer.com and incredible directory. You want to check that out and get in it. Lex reception, if you are answering your phones yourself and you’re not covering 24/7, big mistake. And I think AI is coming along, but it’s not quite as good as a live reception that’s going to really, you know, demonstrate to people that you know you know how to do some intake. And of course, if you haven’t checked out the be that lawyer community, go to be that lawyer.com/community this is not just for individual lawyers, although that’s who it’s best for, but it could also be for the associates at your firm. It could be for people that you want to you know you don’t have anything inside the firm that’s really going to give them the content library, the live coaching, the access to rainmakers that I have and curated in this community. So check that out. Everybody I can speak, going under the knife tomorrow, getting my shoulder done and really upset about it, but trying to stay positive. Try to stay positive. Jason, you know, stronger, so that’s right, hey, man, thanks for

Steve Fretzin [31:59]

coming

Steve Fretzin [32:00]

to show you. Want to give out your digits? How do people get digits. How do people get in touch with you? They want to work

Jason Stiehl [32:05]

with a great lawyer. Do people still even call people anymore? Is that really a thing? I don’t know.

Steve Fretzin [32:10]

I don’t get calls ever, and I know that teenagers just,

Jason Stiehl [32:14]

oh, maybe my fax digging on my fax machine. No, so I again. I’m Jason Stiehl. I’m at Kroll and mooring here in Chicago. Office Management partner phone number if you still use those things, rotary dial, 312-840-3108, or J Stiehl@kroll.com would love to chat about anything other than law, and then eventually about the law if you want to. And thanks for having me. Yeah, community is amazing. It really is an amazing group to be part of now. So thank you for the invite.

Steve Fretzin [32:43]

Awesome, awesome. And by the way, I mentioned phone then you went all the way to rotary dial. That’s like, there are people listening. They’re like, what is a rotary dial? So, you know,

Steve Fretzin [32:52]

I was

Jason Stiehl [32:52]

gonna name like, the city, right? It’s like, you know, it’s gonna be like, you know, Chicago, 512, or something, you know, not that far back, back

Steve Fretzin [32:59]

when I was in my 20s, I sold Yellow Pages. People. What are yellow pages? What’s a yellow page?

Jason Stiehl [33:04]

Good to stand on to get the cookie jar,

Steve Fretzin [33:06]

the faster to hit somebody over to like you know

Steve Fretzin [33:09]

for sure, for sure.

Steve Fretzin [33:11]

All right. Well, thank you Jason, and thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 you know, so much to take away from a top Rainmaker who’s just saying, look, it’s all about relationships. It’s all about making good decisions, staying consistent and recognizing that you got to play the long game. This is not a quick get rich, quick scheme. Okay, you got to stay in in the pocket, and you got to play the long game here. So hopefully that’s some good lessons for you guys to be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care. Everybody. Be safe and well, we will talk again soon.

Steve Fretzin [33:39]

You

Announcer [33:44]

Steve, thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.

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