Rob Hanna: Why Lawyers Must Embrace Content, Community, and Brand to Stay Relevant

By Steve Fretzin on May 11, 2026

In a world where technology and AI are reshaping legal services, simply doing great work is no longer enough. In this episode, you’ll learn how leveraging content, personal brand, and community can keep you relevant, visible, and in demand as the market rapidly evolves.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Rob Hanna discuss:

Health, habits, and intentional self-care for high performers
Legal career journey, recruiting, and launching a podcast
Thought leadership, content creation, and personal brand for lawyers
The rise and power of online and offline communities
Technology, AI, and the shifting expectations of legal clients

Key Takeaways:

Treat your health as a non-negotiable business asset; intentionally scheduling exercise, sleep, and recovery fuels better performance, energy, and longevity in your career.
Content is not a vanity play. It’s how you stay visible, demonstrate expertise, and become the “go-to” choice when clients are finally ready to buy.
Community gives law firm owners and lawyers a safe space to be seen, heard, and supported, breaking the isolation that comes with leadership and entrepreneurship.
Technology and AI are eroding the value of pure grunt work, making human judgment, brand, and community presence more crucial than ever to remain relevant.
You don’t need to build a massive empire to benefit from community; starting small, with a few peers, a simple WhatsApp group, or light-touch LinkedIn activity, can compound into powerful opportunities over time.

“I’ve never met anyone who’s built a community who’s regretted it.” — Rob Hanna

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About Rob Hanna: Rob Hanna is the founder and host of Legally Speaking Podcast, one of the leading platforms spotlighting legal professionals and industry innovators around the world. With a background in legal recruitment and a passion for storytelling, he has built a global community by sharing insightful conversations on careers, leadership, and the future of law. Known for his engaging style and commitment to adding value, Rob connects lawyers, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders through content that informs, inspires, and elevates the legal profession.

Connect with Rob Hanna:

Website: https://legallyspeakingpodcast.com/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin [00:00]

Hey everybody, before we get to the show, really big announcement for you. This is one of the most important things I’ve done in nearly two decades of working exclusively in the legal industry. It is the be that lawyer community, and it’s officially live today. This is a global platform designed to help lawyers become rainmakers, grow their law practices and take control of their careers. And it’s built for individuals just like you who want more. And it’s also for law firms who want to bring real business development coaching and training to their teams with a strong return on investment. Inside you’re going to find a massive library of content, practical courses, live events and direct engagement with rainmakers from around the world who are there to answer your questions and help you grow. Membership is only 699, per lawyer. It discounts available for groups, and for a limited time, April 15 to April 30, you will get that deal as a founding member at that special rate I just mentioned, you have two weeks take action. Be that lawyer.com/community I’ll say it again. Be that lawyer.com/community to sign up today. Hope to see you there. And by the way, enjoy the show.

Announcer [01:11]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach. Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin, hey

Steve Fretzin [01:33]

everybody. Steve Fretzin, and welcome, welcome. Welcome to the be that lawyer podcast. We are rock and roll, and by the way, Rob, I don’t know if you men know this, but over 600 shows take, like a couple of this is like 604, so we in just under six years. That’s per What do you think? Is that impressive? Not impressive? Don’t care.

Rob Hanna [01:52]

Absolutely. What are you gonna say? I think it shows a lot of things. I think firstly, it shows that you care, and you care about what you’re trying to do with the education, the content, and at the caliber of people you’ve had for those 600 shows, the conversations, you know, I’m genuinely honored to be back again, and I think that’s a huge number. And I think it just, you know, deserves applause, because, you know, you look at the statistics of the number of people, anyone can start a podcast, anyone can write, give someone a pen, but to be consistent, good, grow it, develop it. I know you’ve now been building communities. Probably, when we talk about all of these things, I think it’s hugely immense effort. So congratulations. And yeah, just really good to be catching up with you. Love your energy. Love what you do.

Steve Fretzin [02:30]

Well, it’s been an incredible ride. And again, I’m on the backs of you and other amazing guests who have raised up my profile because of the great content we’d be able to been able to create together. And before we go any further, I just want to mention, if you’re listening to this, I’m wearing a an arsenal shirt, because Rob and I are also both Liverpool fans, and Liverpool is not doing so well. Arsenal is doing very well, although we’ll see how that, how that ends up. But I was just, I was trying to trigger you, and it didn’t work at all. Rob, you had you handed yourself like, like, the mature adult that I’ve come to know and love.

Rob Hanna [03:03]

Well, I feel like I’m like, Liverpool fans this year. We’re just flat. You know, we had all this expectation, we had all of this excitement, and for a number of reasons, which could be a whole different podcast, which probably wouldn’t be hugely valuable to your direct audience. Steve, I could go on. Yeah, we’re just going to see, but a lot of the Liverpool infused red is inspired around my branding as well. For sure, I’ll always be a red.

Steve Fretzin [03:25]

Yeah, me too. I’m, you know, I’m a huge, I’m huge fan, and I was watching, you know, Arsenal and Man City, and then just, just watching Top teams play. And I’m not, you know, I don’t know. I don’t have a horse in the race, so, like, I’m just looking for great quality plays. When somebody scores, and it’s the most amazing goal I’ve seen all season. I don’t know that I care who, who’s putting it in, as long as I see quality. So it’s a different kind of a different perspective. But listen, man, I’m so happy to have you back. You know, normally we do, we start off with a quote of the show, and I have everything written down for those who are listening and can’t see. I’ve got a sling on my arm. I had rotator cuff surgery. So I’m a One Armed Bandit for a little while. Is there a quote that you absolutely love that you find yourself saying all the time, and I apologize I didn’t review that with you ahead of time, but anything jump out at you? There’s

Speaker 2 [04:10]

two

Rob Hanna [04:10]

quotes. There’s one I may have said before on your show, but it’s my ultimate favorite, and it hits every time. There’s one that I learned from someone at a recent event that I hosted, which is very relevant in terms of technology and innovation, and the one that I’ll start with on the technology innovation is innovation must be invincible, but unmistakable. I thought was really good in the world of AI and everything coming forth that really landed for me. And the one that I always like to share is, and it’s probably as an extension of that, particularly if you’re sitting on your hands in line with the AI revolution, things going on is the magic you are looking for is in the work that you’re avoiding.

Steve Fretzin [04:44]

Yeah, yeah. And that doesn’t have to just be AI. I mean, that’s, that’s the business development, that’s all of the things that allow us, you know, your health, right? What’s allowing us to be our best versions and make sure that we’ve got, you know, powerful batteries in us to get things done. And. Live the lives we want to live, the lives we want to live. So

Rob Hanna [05:04]

could I just just sort of build on that? Because I think, yeah, when we say the health thing, and then we go on to the like, it is absolutely true. Steve, you and I are entrepreneurs. We built businesses. But I’m turning 40 this year in June, and I made a very conscious decision, and I was inspired off Jackie of Cleo. You know, he’s ran every day, I think, since the age of such a teenager, I think, and I’m just thinking, if you can be running a business of that scale, that significance, traveling around the world, I can also get off my butt and be inspired by that, but also put my own health first. And I think, you know, it’s gone from I’m selfish now to the extent that I will make sure I put a run or put time in to put my health first and those little things then matter. On the weekend, I can, you know, my daughter’s four or five, I can lift her up, I feel more energetic. So, yeah, I think we always, you know, you have to be intentional about putting your health first and not just sort of nice to have. I’ve got a client meeting where I’m going to skip it today. Put it in your diary, commit to it, do yourself the right justice, and you’ll feel so much better for it as a result of it.

Steve Fretzin [06:01]

Yeah, and all of the health professionals and wellness professionals we’ve had on the show go back to, you know, eating, exercise and sleep as the three big three big ones. And I’m on about four hours aside to sleep in a Lady Boy. So I’ve only gotten I’m sleeping next to the cat who likes to snuggle, which is not great for sleep, no matter how sweet he is. So it’s, it’s really been rough, but, um, I was talking to a client. They’re like, Are you sure you’re only getting four hours of sleep? You’re seem like you’re shot out of a cannon, or that you’re really ready to go? I go, Yeah, I don’t know what’s going on with it. Maybe, maybe, all this time I’ve only needed four hours. But that’s, that’s not the case. I know. I know seven. Seven is the magic number for me. But I think all of those things, you know, allow us to to be, you know, at our peak performance, and without it, you know, then you wonder why, you know, why you’re not, you’re not performing, or why you’re getting burned out. And it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a big surprise, or it shouldn’t

Rob Hanna [06:50]

be, no, and people put, you know, I obviously work in the career space within law, and have done for the last decade. You know, we put so much emphasis on our careers, the next job, the progression, the promotion, the recognition, the recognition and we neglect, you know, what I personally had and when I was running my legal businesses, you know, neglected, and I just sort of really had to be intentional now that, unless there’s something really significant, there’s a part of my day where I’m going to dedicate it to

Steve Fretzin [07:14]

my health. I absolutely love it. So let’s, let’s get into the weeds a little bit everybody. I’m just so happy to have Rob back on the show. He and I have been buddies for a number of years. And you know, between your your podcasts, legally speaking, and in your recruiting business, and all the amazing things that you do, you’re just a dynamo in the legal space, I feel like sometimes I’m not, I’m not, I’m never competing with you, but I always feel like I got to keep up with Rob. I got to figure out what he’s what he’s up to. So give everybody a little, a little, you know, a couple minutes about you and how you came to be.

Rob Hanna [07:45]

Yeah, so the short version of my story, just for refreshers for old and new listeners. I come from a legal family, so that’s really why I wanted to move into the world of law. My grandfather ran a very successful and I know we’ve spoken about our family backgrounds and inspirations, but my late grandfather ran a very successful law firm over here in the UK in the 1950s came from very humble beginnings, and was the first in his family to really go get the qualifications to qualify as a lawyer. And that really inspired me as a youngster, I’d go to his law firm during the summer holidays, and, you know, do all the important jobs, get the teas, get the coffees. You know, do the stapling, do the photocopying. And I was just inspired by him setting up his own business, growing it, and the reputation that he left off the back of it. I think, you know, a great quote that he said to me is, live respected, die regretted. And absolutely, I think that was a legacy that he was able to live and left. And so for me, that’s my inspiration. And then in 2016 I’d start in the world of recruiting. I then set up a legal recruiting business for the reasons I just explained. And then I realized early into legal recruiting life, I needed vehicles. I needed ways, mechanisms, systems that were different to my competitors, to stand out. Hence the birth of the legal speaking podcast. Which can I believe it? You know, 2018 I think, Steve, can you believe that? You know, which seems, seems like a distant, you know, a decade, nearly a decade ago now, and so we were quite early to establishing and now, of course, podcasts are everywhere, and it’s great to see, and I think there’s room for everybody to grow all of that good stuff. And I saw that as a really good early stage opportunity to build connection with new clients and build communities, which we’re going to talk about, and all of that great stuff. And then from there, it’s all snowballed. You know, the power of podcast. It’s brought me into businesses. Now I sit on the board of and sort of shareholding, some legal tech businesses, speaking opportunities, brand partnerships, collaborations, great inflow of leads, of course, to my main business, the recruiting business, and so much and beyond, really. But yeah, so come from a legal background. Wanted to kind of continue that legacy, but innovate and do it in a cool way and build a community and leave a good reputation and legacy for my family.

Steve Fretzin [09:47]

Well, I think something you and I have done very well, and I don’t know that there’s anybody that can really dispute this, and it’s not an ego or a chest thumping exercise, it’s sort of the reality is that we’ve put our time in to build content and create a. Thought leadership around, you know, for me, it’s been books and articles and video and podcasting and all the different things that come from it. And you’ve been out there, you know, keynote speaking, and you’ve been networking, you’ve been building out and so much content that you’re creating, you know, audio, video and everything else. Why do you think lawyers struggle with that piece, like it’s hard enough for us to talk about business development. Hey, get out there and network and do business development. And now we’re saying, wait a second, by the way, it’s also you got to be a thought leader, and that’s the way to build business and it may be confusing between the two. So, so what do you think is that their main challenge around that, I

Rob Hanna [10:37]

think historically, is because that’s not my job. The thought, the mindset is, that’s not my job. My job is, you know, I’m going to bring in business, I’m going to deliver on the business. I’m going to work on delivering that business. And that’s what matters, you know, the profitability and the billable hour, all of the stuff that, again, could be a large debate, which really is getting challenged quite significantly now, and equally, from the client side and the client pressure side, because of technological advancement, because a lot of that grunt work and work can now be done. I’m not sure if I’ve shared this before, Steve, but I’ve had Shark Tank investors come on to my um piers. Lenny came onto my legal stream podcast, and he talks a lot about the value pyramid, and there’s this value pyramid, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, an insurer. But technology is coming in and really coming in at an exponential pace. Now with AI, we’ve seen that a very basic level, with document automation, with contract management, with, you know, e discovery, all the tools that have been around for years and years and years. Now we’re moving from systems of record to systems of action, with AI agents and all of this good stuff, and so as a result of it, that is a huge time save, but it’s you as the professional, where you have to stay ahead of the technology. And I think now we’re getting to a stage where community building, a brand, being present, that human judgment, all of those things that historically have been seen, that’s not my job. I think this frees up time to go out there, be the thought leader, be the key voice, because ultimately, a lot of the job can be done through a lot of the technology that’s coming in. To an extent, I know people can challenge that view, but this is why I think now is the best time to be leaning all into community, human connection, thought leadership, content, putting yourself out there, because you become that go to voice, you become that key person. And actually, oh yeah, I’m thinking, I’m about to incorporate a company who’s that corporate lawyer that we’ve been following on LinkedIn. It’s been sharing really helpful stuff over the last six months. Yeah, I’m gonna reach out to them. They’re top of mind to me right now because I’ve been getting into their system. I’ve been absorbing their content. And so I think it’s absolutely a no brainer now to be leaning in all into this, and the tools and the opportunities are right there for people to do it. And so I’m excited for it. And I think if people can change the mindset from that’s not my job to now, this needs to be a part of my job, because it’s going to keep me relevant. I think they’ll be successful.

Steve Fretzin [12:52]

Well, the problem is, is that it used to be, and this is back in my, you know, late great Larry fretzen Day of if I just do great work, and I win cases and I and I’m, you know, good with my clients, and they really appreciate the value, and word of mouth is going to allow me to build my practice. And I, I know that’s still happening in some small, you know, corners of the world, but ultimately, the shift that I, you know, AI aside, is, is that, you know, we have to do more to stay top of mind. There’s so many more messages and people and competitors and AI and all these things that are vying for attention, and we’re now in the attention, you know, kind of environment. And so I think lawyers that say business development is not for me, thought leadership and building content and putting myself out there is not for me. Okay, it may not be for you, but know that there’s going to be consequences, maybe not tomorrow, but in the next two, 510, years, that that are going to that are going to be difficult for you to, you know, maintain your level of business, and that maybe you have now.

Rob Hanna [13:55]

And Richard Susskind, I’m sure you’re, you’re aware of one of the most cited legal tech authors, you know, brilliant keynote speaker does a lot within, you know, he’s quite vocal and saying, and I this line. Line really landed with me at one of his keynotes. The market will show no loyalty. You know, that’s the reality. The market will show no loyalty once these client expectations and shifts happen. If you’re no longer visible, you’re invisible. You know, like you said, you know, my late I remember my late grandfather saying, and this is in his generation, he heard an advert for his law firm that he’d sold out to many years ago on the radio. He says, they’re dead, they’re advertising on the radio. And that was the, you know, because they relied on word of mouth, reputation, tradition. But I think, you know, probably to be a little bit more verbose than what you’re sharing. I think if you rely on word of mouth, I think you’re going to struggle, unless you’ve got really super high quality, and that volume is significant, I think you have to have digital presence. You have to have digital footprints. You have to have touch points. You have to meet where your future emerging clients are coming and they’re all online.

Steve Fretzin [14:53]

Yeah,

Speaker 2 [14:53]

hey

Steve Fretzin [14:56]

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Speaker 2 [17:33]

And there’s a

Rob Hanna [17:34]

couple of points to that. Steve, firstly, a community can be as much as a community of two people. That’s still a community. The other thing I get from a lot of people is lawyers, it’s like, I don’t want to share on my I don’t want to share. You know, that’s giving too much out there. Just remember, this content for free, implementation for a fee, you and I can share everything right now, but actually to go and implement it and implement it to the highest levels. You know, if people like, Hey Steve, could always grab five minutes your time to learn about how to build a community. Or, Hey, Steve, could I get 20 minutes your time? You could still tell them, but they’re going to get stuck there’s going to be unlocked there. They just haven’t got that. So the implementation side of that real wisdom that you’ve been built up over 608 609, episodes, or the online community you’ve been creating, the mistakes you’ve made like that, that wisdom, that expertise, that knowledge that you have and how to execute it, that’s where the people are going to pay for you, because they’re going to get stuck at the bottleneck of just either being overwhelmed, not understanding where to go. So I would challenge people. They say, Oh, I’m not sure I want to share that content for free, implementation for a fee. And I guarantee if you share good quality content, people want to pay for your services?

Steve Fretzin [18:42]

Well, maybe part of that too, is understanding that your content can be pushed into the right the right arms, the right audiences. So for example, if you’re pushing your content, for example, I’m doing a presentation, and it’s to a bunch of lawyer coaches, that’s probably not the best place to share my content, right? But if I’m sharing my content with legal, you know, with law firms and lawyers and people that that are interested in business development and branding and growth, then, then that’s maybe the the audience is, I think, important for you to sort of select and figure out what’s the platform that’s going to get to the audience that that you can, that you’re looking for is your content quality, getting feedback on that content, and then building that audience and building that community, and then next level is, can you take that community, and this is what we’re going to maybe morph into, is the be that lawyer community? So what is that? So that’s a new online program where I’m able to provide my podcast, audio, video, books, articles, courses that I’ve created, live events that they can attend, all internal to this community, communicating with other rainmakers within a within a set, structured internal system. And so now we’re able to, you know, essentially, take a business and make it more of a of an internal, you know, communal, like I have a Deerfield dad’s group for. Facebook. I’m not a big Facebook guy, but I know that if I go to Deerfield dads and I ask a question, I’m going to get 510, 15 responses that is incredibly valuable for me. In a community like I have, somebody could go and say I’m looking to hire my first associate, any tips, and then a bunch of people are going to pounce on that and give advice and give tips and give you know, thoughts about mistakes they’ve made, or ways to do it, or resources like you that can be leveraged, you know, to get the right people in place.

Rob Hanna [20:28]

The biggest thing I think about community, Steve, is we’re living very busy lives, and actually law firm owners partners, it can actually feel sometimes quite isolating. And I think when you’re part of a community, I think if the communities run right, you generally feel seen, heard and valued. And I think that’s gold, because, like you say, someone puts that question in, maybe they don’t know that. Maybe they’re not confident to do that in their current environment, or the organization they’re in, or peer networks to be part of a safe place where they can go to with no judgment, ask that question and then get that pain relief from that question within probably minutes, given how engaged your community is, that is ultra powerful stuff. Just think about that. That person is going to become a super fan of your community, which absolutely you’re already doing right there. So they’re going to be your biggest cheerleader, fan, networker, advocate. They’re also getting the level of content that they need, so they’re not going to go anywhere. They’re going to be sticky, and they’re going to be able to become a super fan and be really more active and engage more and more in the community. And the flywheel and the momentum and things that build off the back of that, it just energizes the community more and more and more. I see it on a WhatsApp group. I’ve got about 250 of some of the top legal influences, people in legal people running firms, putting on events. You know, people are always asking all the time question, and I’m amazed by the level of responses that get, because it’s a hyper engaged community. And people all the time were like, I didn’t know what I would do without this community. Like, these are super powerful things that exist.

Steve Fretzin [22:00]

Well, think about, I mean, what’s the best way to get ahead? It’s to, it’s to be surrounding yourself with people who are already successful, people have made the mistakes, people who can help and educate you in content that’s going to be relevant. So as an example, and I’ve mentioned this a number of times, I you know, I’m going to be tough on this this summer, but, you know, I love to smoke ribs and smoke brisket and salmon and, you know, take my smoker out and make some incredible food. I’m not getting anywhere without a community of smokers around me. I’ve got friends and groups and videos that I watch and all kinds of things that I’m like a fan of them. I’m now in their communities as someone who’s trying to learn a craft that I can have for the is a hobby for the rest of my life. And am I willing to pay for that? Yeah, I’m definitely willing to pay for that. And I do in some groups. Others are free, but you get, you got to go where the where the best action is. And so, you know, I’m not suggesting that lawyers need to go out and set up a subscription service for, you know, learning about, you know, employment law, but I think lawyers in general, need to think about, is it health and wellness? Is it business development? Is it time management? You know, is it is it being a great leader? What are the skills that you need to develop, and who should you be following and becoming a part of an audience? And if they have a platform, like an internal community that you can join, great do it? I’ve got a rainmaker roundtable, and everyone in there is, you know, great friends. They’re sharing their their challenges. They’re sharing their wins. They’re all having incredible years every year, and that it’s just a group they can lean on that they just wouldn’t have if they were just on their own in a silo. So it’s really powerful stuff. And

Rob Hanna [23:38]

it goes back to the point that I was saying the fact that people are sharing their challenge, you’re creating a safe space. People feel seen, heard and valued, because so many people, historically, for years and years before the online community things exist, were suffering in silence, and that’s impacting that maybe you know they’re a managing partner or set up their own law firm, and they’re meant to have all the answers. They’re meant to know everything. They don’t know where to go. And now these places and spaces actually give people light. They give people hope. They give people a space to go to, and it gives them fun, right to be themselves. Because not people aren’t lawyers, we’re humans, right? So, you know, within your community, yes, you can have the referral section, maybe you can have the knowledge sharing, the event section. You can also have a fun tab, you know, and people can express their personality and who they are and what they want to be. And, yeah, I’m just really big advocate for the H to H, the human to human connection to come back. And I think online communities are a really good place to be. And to your point as well about business development, I think so many lawyers are very good at working in their business, like I referenced before, getting the billable hours and keeping not so good working on their business. And I would actually think about working on your business, and the way to do that is to shortcut your time, because your time poor is to go in communities where there’s years of collective wisdom and knowledge shared up, where actually, maybe business development is a poor error for you right now, stop understanding, you know, the technical excellence and all of that training you’re getting inside your law firm, but you’re probably not getting the good quality business development which you need to go and get these. Ticket clients, or become the Rainmaker. Go and join Steve’s community. That’s going to help you shortcut your time. Great place to be. And so you’re starting to work on your business. So use communities as a way to see actually, the growth of on your business, not getting stuck in your business.

Steve Fretzin [25:13]

And to your point, online is one way. There’s one of my clients in Texas, and shout out to Christopher. He is like taking around food trucks and, like, smoking meat and doing, like, catering. That’s not, he’s a law firm. He’s not a catering service. But what he’s doing is he’s doing these, like, pop up events where he’s, like, feeding communities. He’s bringing in the banker, he’s bringing the accountant, he’s bringing in the local people in that community to enjoy food together and feed, you know, feed everybody. And he’s setting up like, you know, you know, kind of roundtable groups and conversations about business and and just starting to do things that are going to be really important. But all the people that come, you know, they’re either a part of his community and a fan of his or they’re meeting him for the first time and then realizing, Hey, this is someone I want to be. I want to be a part of this community. I want to be a part of know what Christopher’s got going on, right? So I think online, offline, whatever it is that you that you’re doing to build yourself up, it’s going to help sure that your long term success is sort of guaranteed.

Rob Hanna [26:12]

And those conversations, people will remember him for the Brits get slightly No, not the law, but it’s top of mind because of that. And another example, I interviewed a gentleman in the episode hasn’t come out yet, and this, and by the way, this community is applied to small law, big law, middle law, wherever you want to sit on the spectrum. This is an example. So I interviewed some of my show recently who is a DJ, passionate, passionate DJ, but he is a top, top partner at one of the most prestigious law firms in the world in arbitration. And we went through his story and his DJ. Name is DJ justice. Awesome name. He went to Oxford. Very good academic, very good. He was running club nights and everything else. But he he kept his DJ and his passion very quiet up until probably had reached partner. And the only reason it came about because the managing partner of one of his firms said, Hey, we’re going to put on an office party. Does anyone know any place? And he said, Actually, I DJ, and he was nervous to voice that. And the managing partner said, We’d love for you to do that. You know, this is brilliant. And from that moment, it was just fantastic. You know, went really well. He’s been huge successful. And he said his biggest regret is not showcasing that passion or what I’m really keen, and it would have been really beneficial for me going out. And now he’s built a community as a partner of a law firm, and has what they call dance of law. They were put on darts nights and DJ nights, and they invite partner DJs to come, and they’ve created a whole community, and have loads of lawyers coming off the back of it. And that’s just another example of like turning a passion and showing your true self, your human self and building a community. And they a lot of the money also, because they’re also doing very successful lawyers, is then giving back to charity, which is another great win for society, generally. So yeah, whichever way you strip it, like, if you’ve got a passion or you’ve got a value to add, like building a community and the amount of good energy you get from it, or just, you won’t put it this way, I’ve never met anyone who’s built a community

Speaker 2 [28:00]

who’s regretted

Steve Fretzin [28:00]

it, yeah, right. There’s no, there’s no looking back once you get down the right path with doing that. I just want to wrap things up with this segment and in this conversation about, I don’t want lawyers listening to this to freak out and think that they’ve got to be Rob, or they’ve got to be Steve, or they’ve got to be the lawyer that, you know, the John Morgan’s of the world. Sometimes it’s just about getting started doing something, you know, posting once a week on LinkedIn, or, you know, hosting an event at your home where people can come in and you can feed them, and you’re bringing in your network in to visit with you or your clients, having a client event. Some lawyers already doing that. But I just want to get your take on that, just starting small and not not getting overwhelmed from from this conversation,

Rob Hanna [28:40]

yeah, and like, I think I’ve mentioned before on your show, and it’s, you know, everyone’s read the book, or probably heard of the book, Good to Great. And the flywheel effect and the the energy input by just starting small, putting something in, and things start to take momentum. Take momentum. Take momentum. It could be as simple. Steve is just set up a little Whatsapp group with you and a two or three people that, and just every morning you say good morning to one another. But you know, one morning you wake up, you feel pretty shitty, actually, someone saying, Good morning, have a good day like you’ve got this that’s a bit of community, right? That’s a bit of just goodwill, good DNA. You could do that with lawyer peers, people in the legal industry, a couple of trusted voices, maybe then just set 15 minutes aside a week to say, Hey, what are we all struggling on? What would be helpful to us, actually, as friends, you know, we’ve got the good morning thing going on, which is super helpful. I look out for that message every morning that’s really championing me along. Oh, maybe actually we could do with finding someone with this. So I agree, like just, just stack one percenters every day, one percenters every day, these compound over time, so you don’t get overwhelmed. And yeah, there’s no right or wrong way to necessarily do it. Do what fills your do what fills your cup and feels valuable to you. But I think a great thing to do is to collaborate and get around people that are already building or understand the importance of communities, because they’ll lift you up and they’ll inspire you and motivate you to want to

Steve Fretzin [29:56]

do it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s that’s sort of like success. One. On one is put yourself in a room with other good people, other people that are more like when I play a sport, I always want to play with people better than me well, so I get beat up. But you know what? That’s how I’m going to get better, right? So that I think that that theme is straight, straight through everything. And hey, Rob, there’s a new segment you haven’t been through yet so, and I’m throwing this attitude, but there’s a new segment called Rob’s big mistake. So this is a big mistake you made in your life and your career, and it just you at the time, it seemed like the end of the world, but you came through it better, stronger, faster. What’s your big mistake?

Rob Hanna [30:34]

I mean, it’s to a legal audience. The biggest like honest mistake I ever made was signing a document which had some clauses at the end I didn’t fully understand the end to be costing me a lot of money when I was trying to get out of a relationship, a partnership that I was involved in. So as cliche as that is, and it’d be music to the ears of your audience, the legal people is, if you’re going to get professional legal counsel, also make sure that you get the council to explain it to you in very basic terms, so you truly, dearly understand what’s in those documents. Because if you’re ever trying to do something and execute something, it can be very, very, very painful. So yeah, the biggest mistake I ever made was signing a document and sort of taking too much, too much trust in in relationships, and not fully understanding everything was in the in the document, and that came to bite me quite hard.

Steve Fretzin [31:25]

So my assumption is the big takeaway is, you know, get a lawyer involved. Make sure you read it all like Don’t, don’t sign anything without making sure you’ve doubted I’s and crossed some T’s there,

Rob Hanna [31:35]

yeah, and absolutely I’m fully, fully understand. And don’t be afraid to ask silly questions, you know, particularly if you’re not the lawyer like myself. You know, I work around lawyers day in, day out. I’m in the legal world. But their expertise, their judgment, their risk balancing, their advice, their counsel, is really why you’re paying your dollars. And so don’t just get them to put the documents together, get them to also sort of explain to you, you realize, if you try to do that, this won’t happen, or this will happen. Yeah, it’s really, really important, because otherwise you can get yourself in a bit of a pickle.

Steve Fretzin [32:06]

Well, truly amazing and just so happy that you came back. Let’s take a moment. Thank our amazing sponsors, of course, Lex reception, lawyers.com, ranking, rankings, io and pimcon coming up in October. And if you’d like to check out the be that lawyer community that we were talking about during the show, go to be that lawyer.com/community there’s a little demo video there you can check out. But again, you know, for a very low dollar to get into into the space with me and and work directly with me and with all my clients, and just have that experience, it might be worth checking out. Ron. People want to get in touch with you. They want to hear more about they want to check out your podcast. They your podcast. They want to engage you and your services. What are the best digits?

Rob Hanna [32:46]

Yeah, then go to legal stream podcast.com to find out everything about the show. It’s around legal careers, inspiration, education, and if they want to connect with me directly, they can give me a follow on LinkedIn, which is just Robert Hannah. You can follow me there, and I’ll be more than happy to take a chat offline.

Steve Fretzin [33:02]

Yeah, well, just a pleasure. As always, there’s nothing I enjoy more than bringing on a good friend to talk soccer or football, to bust each other’s chops a little bit and have some fun. And most importantly, give some great content to people who may not realize the importance of community building, the importance of thought leadership and and putting kind of a fine point on it. So thanks, man. I appreciate you so much.

Speaker 2 [33:23]

Yeah,

Rob Hanna [33:24]

and likewise, Steve, and this is just a great example of collaboration, right? And, you know, we’ve information shared, we’ve contact shared, we’ve got business off the back of some of our introductions and things that have happened. So the stuff that we’re talking about is also proof of proof of concept, right? This stuff works. So no, it’s a real pleasure to be part of show. Really pleasure to be back. And hopefully next season, we’re talking in a much brighter red Liverpool, hopefully winning the winning the league, but we’re a little

Steve Fretzin [33:48]

way off. They have some if they have the money and they have the coaching, and they can recruit the right people. And like, I was worried when man city lost to boyner,

Speaker 2 [33:56]

yeah, and

Steve Fretzin [33:57]

they are coming out on top. Like they’re, they’re fine, like they just, you just, you make it up in the aggregator, you bring in, you know, other great players. So anyway, more fun. SOC, that’ll be our other podcast that you and I’ll do a football

Rob Hanna [34:07]

talk. Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Fretzin [34:09]

All right. Well, listen, Thank you Robin, thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 hopefully again, getting some some some good takeaways about what it means to not just be that lawyer, but to really be thinking about, you know how you’re a thought leader, how you’re building a community around you that’s going to help sustain your practice long term. So helping you be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe and well, we will talk again very soon.

Announcer [34:38]

Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.

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