Clay Stelzer: Radical Responsibility and the Path to Full Aliveness

What would you be willing to risk for “full aliveness”? In this episode, leadership coach Clay Stelzer unpacks radical responsibility, unconscious fear patterns, and how courageous self-awareness can transform the way you lead, work, and live.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Clay Stelzer discuss:

• The meaning of “full aliveness” and positive selfishness
• Radical responsibility vs. victim, blame, and hero patterns
• Unconscious fears around security, approval, and control
• Feedback, delegation, and leadership blind spots
• Handling triggers, anger, and emotional energy as a leader

Key Takeaways:

• You can’t create a fulfilling life or career without first getting radically honest about what you truly want and what you’re currently sacrificing to please others.
• Most of the outcomes people dislike in their lives are driven by reactive, fear-based decisions made without intention.
• Leaders are constantly influenced by three unconscious fears: threats to security, approval, and control, and these fears quietly shape decisions around feedback, delegation, and team dynamics.
• Taking radical responsibility means noticing your patterns, acknowledging your part in any situation, and choosing to learn rather than blame, shame, or play the hero.
• Emotional triggers and anger shouldn’t be buried; when you move that energy in healthy ways, you regain access to clarity, curiosity, and better leadership choices.

“If you could be absolutely selfish and hurt no one’s feelings, what would you want? Just understanding that is so important, because then you can get clear about what am I sacrificing or what am I compromising.” —  Clay Stelzer

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About Clay Stelzer: Clay Stelzer is an executive coach, public speaker, and founder of 15sixty, where he helps high-performing leaders, founders, and senior teams get unstuck, reclaim professional alignment, and take radical responsibility for their lives and businesses. Grounded in the principles of Conscious Leadership, Clay draws on a rich professional background that includes building a global team coaching practice at Salesforce, where he supported over 150 international teams and leaders. He pairs his extensive coaching credentials—including an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC) designation, ORSC certification, and a Conscious Leadership Group certification—with a BA in Psychology from the University of Illinois and an MBA from Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business. Known for his deep presence, fierce honesty, and rare ability to challenge leaders without judgment, Clay creates the vital conditions for trust, clarity, and bold collective leadership from his home in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, where he lives with his family and their black lab.

Connect with Clay Stelzer:

Website: https://15sixty.com/

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:00]

Hey everybody, before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at Be That lawyer.com/community And other than that, please enjoy the show.

 

Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey everybody, welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. I’m Steve Fretzin, and just so thrilled that you’re here today. You know, I’ve been doing this show for a long time now, and just never ceases to amaze me how much fun it is, and how much I enjoy creating content to help lawyers be that lawyer, confident, organized, and skilled rainmakers. And I know you just heard a commercial about the Be the Lawyer community, but if you’re looking to get put a small investment into something where you can learn a lot and network with amazing rainmaking business development minded attorneys check out Be That Lawyer community, Be That lawyer.com/community and just see what it’s all about. If you love it, you want to do it great. If not, no worries. The show is free and keep going that way. Hey Clay, what’s happening, man?

 

Clay Stelzer  [01:33]

I’m doing really well, thanks for having me, Steve.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:35]

All right, happy that you’re with me, and we’re going to take it down. Love to start with this quote of the show, and it’s always exciting me when there’s a quote that I haven’t heard before, and this one I definitely have not heard before. It is, what would you be willing to risk for full aliveness? Jim Dethmer,

 

Clay Stelzer  [01:52]

that’s right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:52]

All right, tell us about.. Welcome to the show. Tell us about that quote.

 

Clay Stelzer  [01:55]

Thank you. Yeah, Jim Dethmer, he’s one of the authors of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. Great book, if you haven’t checked it out, I encourage any, any leader to check it out. I’ve learned a ton from Jim over the years, and this is a quote he says all the time, and I’ve taken it to heart over more than a decade. What are you willing to risk for your full aliveness? You know, we, a lot of people talk about codependence, especially in marriages and business partnerships, and we sacrifice what we’re wanting to try to please others. We take responsibility for others’ success, others’ happiness, and so this idea, you know, people will give the word selfish a bad word, but I love what my clients talk about, if you could be absolutely selfish and hurt no one’s feelings, what would you want? What would you create for yourself in your life, and just understanding that is so important, because then you can get clear about what am I sacrificing or what am I compromising in my current relationship, so what am I, what could I become willing to say no to that I’m saying yes to, et cetera, and we’re the only ones in our way of having the lives that we want, so I love this idea, what would you be willing to risk for full aliveness, meaning what choices am I making or not making now that are leading me to the exact results I’m experiencing?

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:08]

Yeah, well, I don’t think that quote in this conversation is too far away from our audience. I mean, I think lawyers, many of them get pulled into, you know, work and the billable hour and politicking in the office and things that really are not their favorite things, yet it’s kind of part of the territory and the job, and obviously this show and other things that you know help them build business, so they can get their own clients and become leaders, and you know, you create your own destiny, that doesn’t mean it’s easy,

 

Clay Stelzer  [03:37]

that doesn’t mean it’s easy, no, it doesn’t mean it’s easy, and we have, we believe through all that difficultiness that we don’t have control, and we don’t give ourselves as much credit for the amount of control we actually do have. I really do believe that

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:50]

that’s a very, very good point. And yeah, I mean, ultimately, look, we have one shot at this thing called life, and you’re either gonna live it on your terms and the way you want to, or you’re gonna just, you know, go along like a sheep, and I think you know we all know things are precious. Our time here is precious, so

 

Clay Stelzer  [04:06]

absolutely

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:07]

take some chances. I think that’s what this is all about, right? Yeah, cool.

 

Clay Stelzer  [04:11]

And I should tell you, when you’re hanging out with other people that are playing that same game about willing to be really clear about what you want and sharing it, those are the relationships that are best. When both people, a client relationship, it doesn’t matter, any kind of relationship where both parties are sharing what they really want, and you can support each other to achieve those things. Those are the most beautiful and meaningful relationships in my life.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:32]

Yeah, that’s awesome, man. I love that. Well, everybody, we act. Clay Stelzer here, CEO of 1560 I’d love to hear your background, and please don’t leave out the name of your business, 1560 that is a very odd name. I’m curious to hear how you came up with that.

 

Clay Stelzer  [04:49]

It is an odd name. I could have been like Sunshine Coaching, where you know all these typical coaching names. I wanted something a little different, and I wanted it to be fairly meaningful. It’s not all that memorable, but it. Is meaningful, so what I learned is when I was coming up with a name, is that adults on average take 15 breaths a minute, and so in my world that means we all have 15 opportunities every 60 seconds to stop and wake up, and all of the outcomes in our lives that we’re unhappy with most often are due to a reactive decision, where we’re choosing, we’re moving without intention, and so in my life, being intentional, understanding my own patterns, my own fears, and choosing with intention versus just being on the treadmill is what leads me to really a lot of fulfillment and joy in life.

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:38]

Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, and part of that goes with, and I think right in line is like responsibility. Are people really taking responsibility for, you know, their actions, and what do you, what would you consider, you know, radical responsibility?

 

Clay Stelzer  [05:51]

Yeah, so actually radical responsibility. Also, I learned about that through Jim Dethmer as well, and you know, listen, we have outcomes in life that we’re unhappy with, and the common thing for all human beings to do is, we complain about things, we’re the big victim, we’re powerless, and we hem and we haw, or we go on the offensive and we blame people for all of our outcomes, we blame ourselves, we have someone to beat up, if I feel this shitty, there must be a reason for it, or we play the hero, and we’re taking more than our responsibility, we’re sweeping things under the rug, etc. etc. And those things feel good in the moment, but they don’t actually create any kind of sustainable change that’s going to lead to anything better. That’s actually the human experience. We do all those things because it is natural and normal. That’s what we do to feel safe in an unsafe situation, and the idea of radical responsibility is recognizing our natural patterns like that, but again stopping and choosing with intention, moving through our fear rather than having our fear lead us, moving through our fear, getting into a healthy relationship to create an outcome you actually want, and everything I do with CEOs, leaders, whoever I’m coaching, it’s all about waking up and seeing how I am creating the very outcomes I’m experiencing in my life, waking up to patterns I may not know exist, but leading with curiosity and learning rather than just simply being on the treadmill, blaming others and checking out.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:19]

I think that word curiosity is under utilized. It’s really what life is. I mean, why do we travel to other countries? Why do we, you know, explore new jobs or business ideas? Why do we come up with ideas? Why do we, you know, try new things just because of curio? And I don’t know, it’s almost.. I don’t wanna say it’s a dying art, but like, it seems like people aren’t curious like they used to be. Do you have a feeling about why that might be?

 

Clay Stelzer  [07:43]

Yeah, well, it’s vulnerable. It’s way easier to blame someone else for our problems.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:46]

Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [07:47]

curiosity, you know, there is a little bit of a bitter pill to swallow when you step into this radical responsibility piece, like really asking the question, what’s my part in this, that requires you to be a little vulnerable and wake up to something you might not want to wake up to in your own life.

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:04]

Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [08:05]

and so most people have so much going on, we’re so busy, they’re just gonna the path of least resistance is just what most people choose, and that is not going to be taking radical responsibility. However, I’ll tell you, the more that I’ve played with this in my own life for the past 15 years it has become a little bit of the path of least resistance for me, because I know that if I am just being reactive and just again on the tremolo, that leads to all kinds of bullshit that just slows me down and creates all kinds of drama in the long run, and but yeah, curiosity requires some willingness to be uncomfortable,

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:41]

you know. Here’s something I’m curious about, and I don’t know that we covered it in any kind of detail. How did you get into leadership coaching?

 

Clay Stelzer  [08:47]

Yeah, so about 15 years ago I was an executive, I was an innovation consultant working with some of the biggest companies in the world, and on paper I was killing it. My resume was great, biggest clients in the world, and underneath my smile, I was an absolute wreck. I was empty and tired and anxious and panicky, and I met a coach that helped me see myself in a way that I wasn’t willing to see myself, and I learned to take radical responsibility, and so I started to wake up in my life, and see, wow, I have a whole lot more control over my well-being than I thought I had, and this is really fun to be able to create change in my life, and to move into the next chapter. And at that point, I was, you know, creating products, I was a product innovation guy, and I didn’t really care about coming up with the next potato chip for Frito Lay, but if I could help someone navigate what I’ve navigated and create more of what they’re wanting in their own lives. Nothing was more exciting to me than that, and so I kind of made the shift from product innovation to people innovation, helping others the way I was so lucky to have been helped, and that continues to be such a joy and a you. A really lovely way to spend my days, many years later,

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:04]

is honestly, I don’t know too many successful people, and I’ve interviewed hundreds of rainmakers and managing partners and experts and people that run big companies in and around the legal, where they don’t have someone like a coach or an advisor mentor that helped them through. I don’t think people are able to, on their own, for the most part, have breakthroughs and clarity without someone else’s perspective helping them through.

 

Clay Stelzer  [10:32]

We all have blind spots.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:34]

Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [10:34]

you know, I’ve been a coach for 13 or 14 years, and I still meet regularly with other coaches, and we support one another to see ourselves.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:42]

Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [10:42]

just like you go to the gym because your body needs work. It just, we need others to reflect back what they’re seeing. It’s just incredibly helpful. I’m a huge fan of the industry of coaching. It has again helped me transform my life. A big fan of therapy that has transformed my life. We need teams, we can’t go alone. We can. Most people try to go alone, or a lot of people do. I’m pretty good at attempting that, but I’ve learned over the years it’s way healthier and a lot more fun to have people around you that want to support you.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:14]

Yeah, and for lawyers who are stuck and really can’t see, you know, the forest through the trees, and in law firms is just a lot of partners who are like technically sound, but they struggle to lead people. It’s not a skill that’s taught in law school or a skill that’s taught generally at the law firm level, like, hey, you built a great book of business, you should manage this firm or manage this, you know, run this practice group. Like, there are unconscious patterns. What are.. I guess I should ask, what are the unconscious patterns that you see most often in high-performing professionals?

 

Clay Stelzer  [11:44]

I mean, there’s so many, but I’ll give you some. I mean, in that,

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:47]

limit it to 15 or 20.

 

Clay Stelzer  [11:49]

Yeah, okay. So, I mean, in that one example, it’s just so funny. It’s, you know, I’ve been.. I see this all the time. I’ve been really good at what I do, and so, of course, it just makes sense to lead others, and I want people to stop and ask, why is that what I’m passionate about, is leading others or training others, or is what really fills me up doing the job, being the attorney, not the managing partner, or whatever it might be. So, why are you doing what you’re doing? We kind of have these built-in belief, these belief systems about what success means, or what we should do, and I really always encourage people to question those things. Now, getting into the patterns, well, there’s three fears that we are all constantly scanning for: a fear to a threat to our security, meaning our ability, our financial security, our ability to take care of ourselves. We are always scanning for a threat to our approval, if people are really appreciating us, liking us, wanting to be with us, and the last is control. We’re always scanning, looking for threats to how much control we have in the world, and anytime those things show up in business or anywhere, we go a little sideways, and we react in a way that leads us further from what we’re wanting. And so I see this all the time. We don’t give feedback. Every organization I go into, I ask, how much feedback do y’all give here? And you know, everyone’s, oh, we get tons of feedback. Who doesn’t want to give feedback? It’s such an obvious value. And then I really watch, and yeah, maybe there’s 60 70% of feedback being given, but what about the other 30 or 20 or 10% yeah, and the reason is, again, approval. I don’t want that person to think I’m an asshole or a shitty boss or whatever it might be. I want to stay connected, so I’m going to keep myself from creating an ouch over there, and I’m going to keep myself from feeling judged. And so we get that’s an unconscious pattern, we don’t give each other feedback, but in my world, the most loving thing we can do is share something with another person that we believe is going to help them be even more successful at what they’re wanting to be successful at. Yeah, the fear gets in the way. There’s tons of those. We don’t delegate for the same reason. We check out, we take on too much work because we want to be the hero, and we train our teams not to do their own jobs, because they’re going to count on us to do their jobs, all kinds of patterns like this.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:04]

Yeah, so how do people who have fears and fear problems, how do they remove them? How do they get through them and lead, lead without that fear?

 

Clay Stelzer  [14:14]

Well, fear is a hard time staying alive in the light. The very first thing you just need to become aware of it, and once I have become aware of my own patterns and fears in the past, it’s like amazing, I can all of a sudden see them everywhere. So, if I see that I’m scared to give someone feedback, I’m then at choice, I can choose to not give the feedback, or I can choose to give the feedback, but at least now I’m willing to take responsibility for the poor result if I don’t. Now it’s actually meaningful to me, like my inaction is leaving me with a result that I’m unhappy with. There’s going to be some pain I’m going to experience by letting fear get in the way of a meaningful conversation, and pain is a big motivator. We don’t, as soon as we have a relationship with the cost we are paying by doing or not doing. Something, well, now we’re going to think we’re going to think about, and at a whole nother, a whole nother level, if we’re willing to push past the fear to do something different. Yeah, so I like to get people in relationship with the cost of inaction.

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:16]

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Clay Stelzer  [17:26]

Yeah, sure. Well, I would push back against the I don’t have a choice, I have to delegate, that’s that. For I’m not calling you a victim, but that’s the victim consciousness that we can all get in. The world is happening to me,

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:40]

yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [17:41]

and you have, like, I’ve chosen to build a business without a team, I, and everyone always asks me, Clay, what’s your plans to scale your business, and I’m like, well, I don’t have a plan to scale my business, I love what I do, and I love the size of my company, because I don’t want to, I want to spend all of my time doing things that I love doing,

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:57]

yeah, yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [17:57]

I managing can be really fun, but that’s not a priority for me right now, I

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:00]

said, I said that for so many years, and I’m so spot on with you, it’s crazy. Unfortunately, what happened is I’m a victim of my content, because I’m creating so much content that I just don’t have the time or the ability to put to do my job, right, to do the coaching and to work with the things I’ve got, and like get all this, and I could just decide not to do anything with this content, or I have to like hire a virtual assistant to do it, but I try. I’m trying to hire someone that can sort of be independent, but that isn’t always the case. Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [18:31]

are you open for some more?

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:33]

That’s why I’m asking. Let’s, let’s work me over.

 

Clay Stelzer  [18:35]

Last I looked, each one, each one of us on the planet has 24 hours, so when I hear people say, I get it, but I don’t believe it. It’s, how are we choosing to prioritize the time that we all have, you know? So, I have a podcast, and there is no way in the world I would do this podcast if I didn’t have a producer and a team of people doing all the work. I wouldn’t do it. Yep, and I don’t want to be the editor, I don’t want to deal with the content, I don’t want to make the posts, not a good use of my time, it’s not a good use of my skills, I don’t want to do it, and so I have a trusted partner now that does all of that for me, and and we can hire people to do the work that we don’t want to do, and in fact, the irony behind it is when you’re spending a bunch of time doing low value work or not, the best use of your talents, it’s a massive opportunity cost you’re paying. If you freed up that time and you paid someone else to do it, I’m curious, what kind of revenue you can make, or whatever it is that you could create for yourself with that time that probably will dwarf what you’re paying a podcast producer, or whoever it is that you need to hire.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:39]

Yeah, well, I just, I did, I did get over the hump of removing someone from my organization and replacing that individual with someone else due to poor performance, and my big problem was it probably that relationship went on about three months longer than it should have, and that I take responsibility for that. I had the fear, since we’re talking about fear of. Not having someone in place to replace that person before, so I got taken advantage of essentially for about three months, and by the way, compliments all around on the content and the marketing I put out, like nobody’s starving here, but I know, like, inside I was eating, eating away at the frustration of having someone that was not working to their full potential to help me with the things that, so I’m taking responsibility for the fear, but also for, you know, the, you know, not taking action on something maybe as effectively as I could have.

 

Clay Stelzer  [20:34]

Beautiful, I love that. Now, here’s the thing, taking responsibility or radical responsibility does not mean beating yourself up for it or blaming yourself, that’s not radical responsibility. Radical responsibility is stepping into curiosity, seeing how I created the outcomes, but offering yourself some acceptance for being a human being.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:51]

Okay,

 

Clay Stelzer  [20:53]

we’re, we are designed, we are designed to make shitty decisions. Our wiring is the same wiring that you know there were saber tooth tigers running, running around. Nothing has changed in our, I mean, some things have changed, but not a lot of the fear-based patterns. And so all of the decisions to not hire someone because we’re nervous of fill in the blank, that’s old wiring. So we don’t want to beat ourselves up for it, we want to be curious about it, give ourselves a breath of acceptance, and then from that acceptance choose something different.

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:24]

Yeah, well, and again, that’s why we end every episode with, you know, what are the big mistakes that we learn from, and I think that what I learned from this one was, you know, I do have to, like, work on being, you know, a better leader and a better manager, you know, have regular meetings, give feedback, get feedback, you know, more, more, and better communication, but I’m with you, that I’ve been, you know, scaling was a big thing in my, in my past, and I just decided that ultimately that was going to be a path I didn’t want to go down, I was, it didn’t satisfy me, it didn’t make me happy, and working with people directly and spending more of my time coaching than trying to build a behemoth company was so much more rewarding, it continues to be, so I’m with you on that. You know, happiness isn’t, you know, big houses and boats and cars and all planes, and I mean, you know, it’s nice to travel, you know nicely, but I feel like they’re all just, just things dragging us down, mostly.

 

Clay Stelzer  [22:25]

Yeah, again, that’s old wire, and we all have it, we especially in this country. I mean, like, turn on a movie or a TV show, that’s about how it’s as young people, that is what we learn to do. Success means money, and all the different things,

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:38]

and I’m, I’m sure, like you, like me, I’m surrounded by a lot of really wealthy people, and I’ve heard and seen the story over and over again where these people get the riches and then they go into their deepest, darkest depressions in their lives, and we then have to look for some real purpose, something beyond just what we’ve, you know, some new watch or something. Yeah, I’ve got a couple questions that are maybe not exactly in line with where we’re going. I’m calling an audible a little bit here. I know AI is like over, overdone, you know, just about everywhere we go, we’re running into AI and all that, but I’m curious, from your standpoint, from someone who’s in a coaching position to work with leaders as the AI becomes, you know, commoditized, it starts to commoditize some of the technical expertise that people have. What are some of the leadership traits that become more valuable when AI is maybe doing more of the analytical work? In this case, it could be more of the legal work that gets taken over.

 

Clay Stelzer  [23:38]

Yeah, I mean, it’s what it’s the very thing you and I are doing right now, having meaningful, connected conversations, and you know, people tell me all the time, well, Clay, how’s AI going to affect the coaching industry? And I think it’s going to be great for the coaching industry. I think a lot of junior and mid-level leaders are going to, I use AI all the time for advice, it’s really, really helpful, but it does not replace being able to look someone in the eye and have a meaningful connected conversation, and I do think the more we are in technology, the more we’re all going to crave human connection. Now, that doesn’t mean just coaching, that means anywhere we’re social species, which is why we get nervous if our approval is threatened in some way. We can’t survive on our own, we’re not designed that way. We need to feel connected to the people around us, and so I think there’s all kinds of up, like any tool. I think there’s all kinds of upside with AI. I think there’s a level of responsibility we need to take, and I absolutely do not think it’s going to replace real human connection. Yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:36]

well, couple more questions. I mean, there are situations that we all find ourselves in as leaders, where we get triggered, you know. I can tell you that example of the last employee I had, and you know, he just disappear for like a day in the middle of like a week of just disappear, and I just found myself getting triggered, and there are people that get triggered not just by employees but by clients. And associates and partners, and they have a bad outcome to a case. What do you say? What would you say a conscious leader should do, not conscious, conscientious leader should do in the first five minutes after being triggered with something.

 

Clay Stelzer  [25:13]

Yeah, well, notice your trigger, and what before you start going on the offensive, what’s going on over here? Ah, really angry. Okay, yeah. And then a conscious leader, I actually do like that language, would ask, what’s my part in my employee ghosting me today? Now, that doesn’t mean there isn’t some also that there’s also some responsibility over there on your employee’s part, but I’m going to put that aside for a minute. Did I create the agreements with my employees that I needed to create about the appropriate ways to take off time, was I clear about what’s appropriate or not appropriate? I mean, so that’s one thing I do. The second thing I do is, what’s.. I would separate fact and story. Do we know that that person’s mom isn’t in the hospital, and he just skipped out? Like, what am I actually believing to be true?

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:58]

Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [25:59]

and what actually is true? I would go check out my stories before I started going on the offensive, so I get curious about my part in this. I get clear about what’s true versus story, and then I would from there’s lots of different things you could do.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:13]

Yeah, well, right. And I don’t think it’s just that. I mean, think about someone in, you know, management, managing partner of a law firm, and all the different things coming at that individual. How do they.. what are some things that they need to do to kind of remain calm in the face of, you know, what seems like just madness happening all around them?

 

Clay Stelzer  [26:34]

Yeah, well, the remaining calm thing is funny, and I don’t actually necessarily believe you should, however, where and how you aren’t calm is the important thing. Like, I have a yellow baseball bat right to my left.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:46]

Yeah,

 

Clay Stelzer  [26:47]

our feelings and our emotions and our energy in our body are not negotiable. If we’re angry, we’re angry, and I do not advocate for being calm and pushing it down, because it will come out sideways when you’re least expecting it. And so I will go beat the crap out of a pillow. I will move the anger, and I will learn from it. And literally, when we’re in that state, we don’t have the access. We don’t have access to the part of our brain that we need to be intentional and caring and smart with the people around us. We got to move the energy, and then we can engage in a meaningful conversation, take responsibility for what we have to take responsibility for, stay curious about what we need to be curious about, so we can learn what we need to learn, and then move.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:30]

One of the best things I’ve learned to do is to, I don’t say, like, you know, bury the anger, that’s not it, but I think when I’m heated and I want to send, like, a nasty email or heated email, is I just sit it, I just sit it in my drafts for like four hours or a day, and then I get the email from the other person, like totally apologizing, and like over the top sorry, and I’m like, if I had sent that goddamn email, everything would have changed our relationship and everything, and I just, I was so blessed that I had, you know, had a cool head about it, even the middle of, you know, wanting to just blow, you know, blow steam,

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:07]

that’s..

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:08]

I don’t know, that that’s everybody, I think that’s something I had to learn from some tough situations in my past,

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:13]

I do the same thing, and in fact, the last thing I ever put into an email is the email address, I always write the email,

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:19]

interesting, then

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:21]

when I’m ready to send it, I’ll put the name of the,

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:23]

okay, wow, all right.

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:25]

But I love having, I love having it sit there. It’s a great, great move, because, again, fact versus story, you were probably believing something about that other person that wasn’t true,

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:34]

100% 100%

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:36]

Aha, so you don’t, and it’s, it’s really instinctual for us to believe our thoughts and our story is when we are triggered in the moment, so we gotta stop. I love that you do that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:45]

Well, listen, some amazing stuff here, man. I so appreciate you sharing your wisdom. Let’s wrap up with one big one. What’s Clay’s big mistake?

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:54]

Which one? I’ve got lots of mistakes.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:57]

You gotta pick, you gotta pick a good one.

 

Clay Stelzer  [28:59]

Well, the one I shared with you before, I think, is good. So, I built a coaching practice years ago for Salesforce, big tech company. For five years, I worked with the innovation teams to help them really coalesce and work effectively, bring together very different kinds of people into a team that needed to work effectively, and that was early on in my coaching days, and I think I played it small again. Unconscious fear, if I was really big, if I really said what I meant, would I still have a job? Security, that’s one of the fears we’re unconscious too. I was nervous of sharing with the people above me how I really felt, what I thought they could be doing differently to get to a different result. There’s some inherent challenges of being an internal coach, because anyway, so I just.. I kind of bit my tongue with a lot of people around me, and I wasn’t as powerful as I could have been. And when I am doing that, I’m not having fun, I’m losing energy. And so I learned so much. It was such a cool opportunity. I loved the. Experience, and I learned it’s funny, I have this here as a reminder. This is a lion someone gave to me as a reminder, like what would the lion really say now? So I really learned to trust myself and my bigness and my passion, and I just trust it, and if I do it with love and care, it just works out all the time.

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:20]

Yeah, some incredible words of wisdom. I hope everybody’s listening to this and appreciating it like I am. Of course, take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors, lawyer.com great directory there, Lex reception. Do not answer your phone, get someone to do it for you and professionally. And of course, Pim Con coming up in October, 1 class experience in the personal injury space, and of course, again, check out the Be That Lawyer community, Be That lawyer.com/community see what that’s all about. I’m also offering up, I think, some live demos if people are interested. Clay, people want to get in touch with you, they loved everything you said, they want to engage you as their coach. What are the digits?

 

Clay Stelzer  [30:58]

What are the digits? So the company is called 1560 Now that’s one 5s i x t y. So you can always email me at Clay at 15 sixty.com The website is 15 sixty.com And one thing to pitch, there’s a my own podcast that people are enjoying, it’s called Fearful Giants. You can check it out wherever podcasts, wherever you check out your podcasts, and it’s me talking with CEOs and founders and managing partners about all their fears and insecurities that we all have, and humanizing folks at the top, and I think we need that kind of conversation in the world, because folks at the top have the same challenges we all do. Yeah, so come check it out.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:39]

Awesome, we’ll make sure we put all that in the show notes as well, for everybody. Listen, man, thanks so much for coming on the show. I’m thrilled that we had a chance to meet and talk and get you on the show, and sharing your wisdom, and you know, there’s a lot of leadership coaches that I brought on on, and your angle, and, and your direction, and your demeanor, and there’s just so many things unique about you that I really appreciate, different than some of the others I’ve interviewed, so you’re your unique special acorn, so we’ll leave it at that. But thanks again, Clay.

 

Clay Stelzer  [32:07]

I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. It’s been a lot of fun.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:09]

Yeah, thanks, man. And thank you everybody for hanging out with us for last 30. Again, whether you’re leading a team, leading a firm, you know, leading your family, whatever it is, or you want to be a leader, you know, there’s a lot that goes into it, so check out what Clay’s up to, and just keep remembering, you know, we’ve got all this incredible content online and YouTube and stuff. I mean, even if you’re not working with somebody, at least start being a student of the game and picking up what you can pick up. We’re in the world of information now. So, thanks everybody. Take care, be safe and well, and we will talk again soon. Bye.

 

Narrator  [32:41]

thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.