Danny Karon: Legal Wellness, the Missing Pillar of Your Health

You look after your body, your mind, and your money, but when did you last check your legal health? A veteran class action lawyer explains why an ounce of legal prevention beats a courtroom disaster, and how writing and speaking turned his career into something no firm could take away.

 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Danny Karon discuss:

• Legal wellness as the “fourth pillar” of wellness
• Helping people with “tweener” cases that are too small for most lawyers
• Documentation and demand letters (the $1,600 airline win)
• Speaking and writing as brand builders
• Rainmaking, autonomy, and starting a new chapter at 60

 

Key Takeaways:

• Legal problems rarely stay legal. When they go wrong, they hit your health, your peace of mind, and your wallet.
• Documentation wins. Screenshots, boarding passes, and a certified letter got $1,600 back from an airline without filing suit.
• Being a great lawyer doesn’t protect you. Even after a billion-dollar trial win, a lawyer with no book of business can be let go.
• Speaking makes people remember you. Writing lasts and can be looked up. Do both.
• You never know who will read your work. One law review article led to a lead role in a huge class action case.

 

“It’s all about being proactive and taking care of yourself. We take care of ourselves physically, emotionally, financially, but nobody pays mind to their legal wellness. It’s the fourth pillar of that wellness table that keeps it stable, and when you go sideways legally, it affects your health.” —  Danny Karon

 

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About Danny Karon: Danny Karon, known as “Your Lovable Lawyer,” is a class-action trial attorney, law professor, author, and legal wellness advocate dedicated to making complex legal concepts accessible to everyday consumers. The founder and managing member of Cleveland-based Karon LLC, he has spent decades representing plaintiffs in high-stakes antitrust, consumer fraud, and wage-and-hour litigation. In addition to his trial practice, Danny serves as a lecturer in law—having taught at institutions such as the University of Michigan, Columbia Law School, and Ohio State University—and chairs the American Bar Association’s National Institute on Class Actions. Through his platform, media appearances, and book Your Lovable Lawyer’s Guide to Legal Wellness, he breaks down legal rights and consumer protections into practical, easy-to-understand advice to empower the public.

 

Connect with Danny Karon:

Website: https://yourlovablelawyer.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Your-Lovable-Lawyer-104479311225240

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/YourLovableLawyer

X: https://twitter.com/lovable_lawyer

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/YourLovableLawyer/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@yourlovablelawyer

 

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

 

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:01]

Before we jump into today’s show, if you’ve been listening to the podcast or reading any of my books, the Be That Lawyer community is clearly the next step for your growth and development as a rainmaker. Learn proven strategies, connect with ambitious lawyers just like you, and put new ideas into action. Check it out at bethatlawyer.com/community. Build your book, own your future, and be that lawyer.

 

Narrator  [00:30]

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:52]

Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin, and welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. Did you guys know — maybe you didn’t know this — that I have another podcast? Yes, I do. It’s called Future Rainmakers. If you are looking to get direct advice from me, hear from my clients, and other experts that maybe haven’t been on this show but are on that show, check out Future Rainmakers. It’s only about a year, but about 30 episodes, and we’d love to have you come and visit there. If you like this one, go check that one out. But you guys know this show. It’s all about helping you be that lawyer: confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. So, I’m bringing on the hits, man. I’m bringing out the best people. I’m not messing around, and I got Danny waiting in the wings. And, you know, it took a while to get here, but I’m thrilled that we made it. We’re both here, and you look like a rock star. I look like a bum. I look like I’m ready to go out and play paddle. You look like you’re ready to go to court.

 

Danny Karon  [01:37]

You talking to me? You know, I learned you can never go wrong wearing a tie. You can always take it off. My dad told me that way back in the day.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:43]

No, I used to love wearing ties, and now if somebody puts ties on me, it’s cuz I’m I’m being kidnapped.

 

Danny Karon  [01:48]

Well, let me tell you, I look good from the waist up. That’s All right. Okay, I’ll I’ll let it go with there. I’ll

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:53]

let it go with there. All right, well, welcome to the show. We’re going to have some fun today, as you guys may have already picked up on. Quote of the show, this has been on a couple of times, but it never gets old. I want to hear your take on it, An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about that quote.

 

Danny Karon  [02:09]

It’s all about being proactive and taking care of yourself. We take care of ourselves physically, emotionally, financially, but nobody pays mind to their legal wellness. It’s the fourth pillar of that wellness table that keeps it stable, and when you go sideways legally, it affects your health, your mind, your wallet, and you’re just a big old mess. And I wanted to bring this legal well- wellness awareness aptitude to people in a way that nobody does, because the lawyers don’t give it away. You don’t see it anywhere on TV or the internet. It’s all about Dr. Phil, or Suze Orman, or Jim Cramer, or The Doctors, whomever, but nothing about the law, except these trumped-up courtroom shows that are really more exploitative than they’re preventive, cuz they show up after disaster has struck. My goal, in terms of legal wellness, was to move the dial back. And in kind of the same way you go to the doctor for a physical to keep from getting physically sick, I want to give people the tools to give themselves a legal physical to keep from getting legally sick. And it’s something that’s not out there, and I wanted to fill that gap and really bring it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:09]

Fill in a void. I love that, I love that. So let’s get into it. And Danny Karon, the Your Lovable Lawyer, everybody, with the new book out, give us your background and and don’t leave out the name of the book.

 

Danny Karon  [03:19]

I I’m a lawyer by trade. I started out here in Chicago, where we both are, practicing at a big firm, and learned early on that that’s, well, I liked it. I dealt with it for a long time with the lawyers and the fighting and all this, and it was just a little a little much. And I kind of migrated, moved on and wound up working for myself, which tells you something about me. We’ll get into that. So I’m on my own now. But I realized that there’s more to what I do, what I care about than just practicing law. I wanted to deliver the goods in a more immediate way. So I started teaching, and I teach now at the University of Michigan Law School. I have class Thursday actually. I’ve got to go to Ann Arbor. And I’ve taught at Columbia and Ohio State. For the American Bar Association, I ran this big program called the National Institute on Class Actions for 15 years, where I really put on vibrant, fun, fresh, invigorating formatting like game shows and talk shows and three-act plays and all this fun, vibrant stuff, because I wanted to find a lane where I could deliver this proactive wellness message to people in an immediate way, and in an entertaining way that keeps them engaged and keeps them interested. And that brought me to where I am now, which is where I’ve stepped out of law and into this legal wellness brand, Your Lovable Lawyer brand, which you mentioned, includes my new book just out in last November. And I am keynoting, and workshopping, and I’m doing a lot of TV, and we’re working on a pilot for a TV show. And that’s what I really want to get into is delivering this message immediately and importantly to people.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:47]

I think you wanted to meet me so I could star in your TV show as the hero of the show. Is that no?

 

Danny Karon  [04:53]

You know what? We’ll have our first casting call before long. All

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:56]

right. All right. I never wanted to practice the law. I always wanted to pretend that I was practicing the law, and so what better way to do it than you know, a show? (laughs) Really funny. All right, so, all right, what the heck is, so lawyers are listening, now let me ask you this before I even get into like what is legal wellness: are lawyers like doctors? Like doctors like tend to not doctor themselves, right? Like they tend to, like one of my, my dad’s best friends was a radiologist, I think he died of cancer and just never like did physicals or like figured out like that he was sick or whatever. Are lawyers at risk to like not take care of themselves legally?

 

Danny Karon  [05:36]

You know, I don’t think so. I think we go way over, overboard on the other end. Okay, you go the other way. All right. Over- over-lawyer things. Every- I’m gonna, I’m gonna tell you, to a to a hammer, everything’s a nail. Okay. You take a lawyer and put them in a room with a minor contract dispute or a fender bender, and they take it to the Supreme Court. Yep. Yep. It reminds me, when I was younger, I was in high school, my dad’s a lawyer. I had like a traffic ticket, and I thought it wasn’t my fault, and by God, I was going to fight it. He said, We’ll go to—and I’m from Minnesota, and it was in Minneapolis—We’ll go to Hennepin County Circuit Court, and, or Circuit Court I think it’s called, and fight it. So we show up, and my dad’s all loaded for bear: he’s got the documents, he’s got the police report, he’s got the camera, the photos, he’s got the skid mark, whatever the heck it is, you know? And we go to trial, and you know, he’s doing this direct examination of me, and it’s kind of, you know, going on and on, and finally, the judge is, Mr.—and he knew, my dad knows all the judges, right, because he’s been there for, he’d been there forever—So Mr. Karon, you know, come on, man. (laughs) It’s a traffic ticket. So, you know, we wound it down, I got out of the ticket, and we went to lunch. So yeah, there’s your example. Everybody, all the lawyers over-lawyer. So

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:41]

see, it’s too much. All right, so then it’s the human beings like me that are not legally well. So what is legal wellness? How do you define that?

 

Danny Karon  [06:49]

The law is designed to scare people, not help them, which is why too few people know they have a legal problem, or know how to solve a problem that they already have. And my goal is to help people do both in a fun and friendly way. It’s really not fair, because the law is not accessible to people. It’s not reserved only for well-heeled folks with enough money to hire expensive lawyers. We all deserve a fighting chance to do right by ourselves and to stay legally just and legally well, and let the law work for us, which is the purpose of, after all, the law. So the book really gets into evergreen topics, you know, enduring topics like, for instance, what to do if you’re in an auto accident, why the small print matters, why you need a will and a trust, how to handle small claims court, and on and on and on for 20 some chapters. And these are—it’s really more of a guide that folks can pull off the shelf if they have a legal problem without having to hire a lawyer. It’s not advice. We can’t give advice. It’s unethical. It’s a little bit of guidance, a little bit of suggestions about how best to proceed, some sample letters, for instance. There’s a chapter on the airlines: when the airlines do you wrong, what can you do? Do you just have to sit up, sit down, and take it? No, you don’t. I’ve got sample templates for people to plug their facts into and to give it their best shot without having to spend on a lawyer or eat it when the airline says, You know what? Your flight was canceled. You missed everything. We lost your bags, whatever, we’re not paying you back. You know what? Yes, they are.

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:10]

Yeah, yeah, right on. So it’s it’s really just like a like a user’s guide like how do you deal with things that happen to you in various capacities, so. Well,

 

Danny Karon  [08:18]

yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:19]

and you’re helping the underserved, which I, you know, I think there’s legal aid, right? And there’s people that do pro bono work, and where does this sort of fit in with all of that?

 

Danny Karon  [08:27]

Yeah. You’re not, you know, legal aid is not taking your case, they’re overwhelmed. Pro bono, I mean, good luck finding a lawyer to take an airline case, right? I’ll get- speaking of which, I’m going to give you an example in a second of a legal wellness success story as it concerns the airlines, but, you know, it’s really just a how-to guide to help us get by in a world where, you know, a lot of folks don’t stand a fighting chance because you can’t afford lawyers and the- no lawyer want to take these cases because they’re just tweeners. They’re right in between what’s too small and too big, and it’s just, you know, they’re not a class action. You know, they’re not worth taking. You can’t get paid a third of, you know, a $50, you know, recovery. So here’s the example: This was, oh, beginning of the summer. We were home in Minneapolis for my dad’s 90th birthday, and my kids came in, one from New York, one from D.C., and the daughter from Brooklyn comes in, and we, you know, she goes back to- it- LaGuardia, and she calls us from the concourse after she’s exited security. She says, I left my new purse and my wallet and my money and my keys on the plane. Like, Oh God, you know. She goes, But I have an AirTag, so I know where it is. I’ll wait until they bring it out to Baggage Services. And she did. And she sees it move and it winds up in Baggage Services, and she goes there and says, Listen, you know, my purse was just brought here. Could I get it back, please? Here’s my boarding pass. Here’s my, you know, all the identifying information necessary. And they said, You know what? We can’t do it. The supervisor’s not here. Come back in the morning. She’s like, Oh God. I got to go home and come back? So she has no choice. She goes home, comes back the next morning. She sees it is still there and says, I’m back this morning. I was told to come back. Can I get my purse, please? She gets the runaround again. And on and on and on, and finally the AirTag goes dark, and then the charges start coming up on the Visa.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:07]

Oh, my god. So,

 

Danny Karon  [10:08]

you know what? Not okay. She shouldn’t have left it, but there’s a whole concept of superseding intervening causation in the law, which means if somebody screws up after somebody else screwed up, they take over the screwup, you know? They have the privilege of getting sued for it, because they managed to make it their own.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:24]

Yeah. And

 

Danny Karon  [10:25]

I said, you know what, the airline messed this up. They could have given you it back, they didn’t, and now you’re out the new purse, the new wallet, the 100 bucks mom gave you, your keys, all this stuff. So, Jillian, my daughter, to her credit, she documented everything. I mean, screenshots, photos, boarding passes, everything. And I put together a five-page single-spaced letter to the airline’s CEO, General Counsel, and Customer Service, return receipt requested, as I instruct in my book. Why? Because I want to know that they got it, and more importantly, I want them to know that I know they got it. And letters get stamped received, rather than emails that get deleted. And I said, You know what? She’s out of pocket 1,600 bucks. You’ve got until 10 days from your receipt of the letter to pay her back, or we’re going to file suit in Small Claims Court in Jamaica, Queens. And on day like 12 or so, I get a call, and they said, You know what, we’re really sorry for what happened. We want to do our investigation, but we believe she deserves this money back. And I said, Thank you very much. You can do your investigation, and you can find out who caused this. I don’t care, cuz she still deserves the money at the end of the day. So just send that now and take your time with the investigation. Yeah. And they did. They wired her all the money.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:37]

Nice.

 

Danny Karon  [11:37]

And that is how you do it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:39]

Yeah. All right. Really good. Good. Now here’s here’s a little flip in the script a little. So lawyers, I do this, but lawyers, they write books, they podcast, they don’t create shows, although you are, Hmm. Right? Right. So, like you’re obviously different at a different level as far as like promoting, and like getting like ideas and creativity, but there are lawyers listening that are like, I just do the law, and then I listen to Steve banter on about business development and marketing, and some of it I do, and some of it I don’t. But like content creation and things like a book and things that take time and effort and energy, but there’s got to be But the we’re also the We’re looking to help people, right? I don’t think there’s an argument there. But it also is It’s a branding play. It’s a It’s a marketing play. It’s something that helps us get the word out about our about what we who we are, what we do, what we want to do more of. Talk to us about about that. What’s your background on Have you always had a passion for branding and and building things?

 

Danny Karon  [12:36]

We are in the business of law. That’s what we sell. We sell the service. And the branding I’m doing associated with this book, which includes a podcast and tons of social, that is not related to getting business. A lot of folks who are kind of counseling me, or who I’ve worked with and not work I’m not working with anymore, thought that I was doing this to get cases. I’m not. I want to get out of getting cases. I want to get into

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:58]

showbiz. I want to

 

Danny Karon  [13:00]

deliver this direct message of wellness on my own outside the courtroom. Yeah. Outside of judges and lawyers, I want to get the message across. But that doesn’t mean that for my last 35 years I wasn’t marketing the hell out of myself. I remember again with my dad way back in the day, I said to him, you know, What should I be doing to advance my career? He said, Man, you got to be marketing. You got to be hustling. He gave me a weathered, tattered old book. I’ve still not read it, but I remember the title. I have it somewhere here. It was How to It was How to Grow Your Own Law Practice. And inside the pages, he had a folded up, now yellowed front page from the Minnesota Lawyer newspaper with then red, now pink felt-tip marker underlining a couple of lines in the article. It was all about making it rain, getting business. That’s how you add value to your firm. And I am actually, next month, going to Vegas to do a gig on business getting for the for the Class Action Institute that I used to chair. Now I just do gigs at it cuz I can’t get stay away. Yeah. And Michigan In my law students in Michigan, I mean, I teach textual stuff and practical stuff. But one of the practical modules that I’ll be teaching next week is on how to keep the job you worked so hard for three years to get. And it’s all about what you need to survive in practice. And my formula is that, and my dad related this to me, it’s all about speaking and writing. Speaking is kind of ephemeral. You put a message out there, people will remember you for how they like you, you entertained, you’re credible. Writing is permanent and enduring, and they can look you up. But both really enhance your brand. And I can give you so many examples of how my writing and speaking made me a ton of money. Because it’s And making money is not a dirty word. Don’t listen to anybody who tells you it is.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:41]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s not. And also, by the way, like money doesn’t mean jack. It’s what money does for you, right? So like money gives you the freedom, it allows you to hire more people, it allows you to delegate, it allows you to take trips, it allows you to pay for your kids college or or have a concierge doctor. I mean, right? So So, what’s wrong with that? I Do Should we all be, you know, living a tough life?

 

Danny Karon  [15:02]

Well, that’s the thing. You know, we don’t malign anybody for making money, but but plaintiffs lawyers. Defense lawyers make money. Plaintiffs lawyers make out. Not okay. And let me tell you, there’s nothing sexy about the defense side of this practice. I mean, you know, making money per hour, big deal. Making money perhaps, that’s some scary stuff.

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:19]

And

 

Danny Karon  [15:19]

I don’t like it most days, that’s one of the reasons I want to get out of it, but there’s a reason why John Grisham writes books and Hollywood produces movies about what I do and not what defense lawyers do, because I got the grit and stakes and sex appeal and romance and fear that people want to keep turning the page and figure out what happened. Out.

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:35]

Yeah.

 

Danny Karon  [15:36]

That’s tough It’s tough stuff.

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:37]

It certainly keeps things interesting. But I think what I’d love to hear you say is to the lawyer listening that, you know, hasn’t written an article or hasn’t posted on LinkedIn or hasn’t done something, to understand like this is, you know, You, Inc. Like this is your life. This is your opportunity, and being a great lawyer is is table stakes. I mean, it’s what you do beyond that that really is gonna is gonna dictate your future.

 

Danny Karon  [16:02]

Give you an example. I got a good buddy worked at a big firm in Chicago. He tried a case against my old firm after I’d left the firm in Chicago here, bet-the-company case. billion dollars at stake, got a defense verdict. I mean, he was riding high. He came back to town to a hero’s welcome. But 2 weeks later, he gets called in by the head of litigation. He thinks he’s going to get a raise, get promoted, get a view of the lake, whatever. Head of litigation says to him, Listen, things are tough right now. This was in the 90s. We got to let some people go. You have no business.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:33]

You’re

 

Danny Karon  [16:34]

gone. All he said to him is what he said to me, which was, But I’m getting married in 2 weeks. Which is true, because I was his best man.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:41]

Oh, my god.

 

Danny Karon  [16:42]

And it didn’t even matter what he had done. Anybody can move the pieces around. You bring in the business, you find instead of grind, you got value. That’s the one you want to be. You can grind and find and fund. That’s the three legs of the stool that keeps the practice standing.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:56]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s the be that lawyer sort of mantra is, you know, anybody, you know There’s a lot of great lawyers out there. I’m not saying anybody can be a great lawyer, but there are a lot of great lawyers out there. I work with Every lawyer I work with is amazing. The question is not only who’s bringing in the business, but what does that do in your career from an autonomy standpoint, from a control standpoint, from you write the rules? And so

 

Danny Karon  [17:20]

You’re royalty. You are untouchable.

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:22]

There we go.

 

Danny Karon  [17:23]

If you bring it in, you’re making it rain. They can’t touch you. And if they threaten to, you leave. Danny, I got to

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:28]

have you on the show more often. You’re singing We’re singing the same song, my friend. But getting there is challenging. You seem like a natural. You know, they say a natural rainmaker. I know that that’s not true.

 

Danny Karon  [17:38]

Not easy.

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:39]

But you had a dad that was encouraging, and you you obviously have figured some things out along the way. I don’t know if you had mentors or coaches or people that helped you, or but how did you become? Are you just naturally charming? Like what How did this all come together?

 

Danny Karon  [17:52]

My dad set me straight. He got me, you know, on the right path in terms of speaking and writing. Here’s an example in terms of writing. So I went through this phase, got to be 15 years ago, I was writing a lot of law review articles, not bar journal articles, not newsletters. I mean talking full-blown law review articles. They’re two years from beginning through middle to end, and they’re a long, tough slog, and then you got to get them published, and this was way before electronic, you know, stuff was around. I’m mailing out copies, and it was a pain in the neck. But I figured, you know, you want credibility, put those out there. They also got me helped get me the teaching gigs. So I published an article in the University of San Francisco Law Review. And it just so happened that we had a mega-case involving LCD flat panel displays, with the price-fixing case, a Sherman Act case. Actually, that was the consumer case, so it was a state-law case, not a Sherman Act case, to be textually sincere. And it got transferred to the extent your listeners know what the MDL process involves, which we’re not going to get into, I covered that 3 weeks ago in class. But got sent to San Francisco, Northern District of California. So a couple lead counsel got appointed from the Northern District, from downtown San Francisco, and we had our first meeting, all-hands meeting at the Sheraton Burlingame Hotel near the airport. And I show up. But before I had shown up, I’d gotten the offprints, the little thin, you know, versions of your law review article that I don’t think people do anymore because they’re expensive. You can just send e-versions. But I sent them out shamelessly to everybody who never asked for one, including the guy who wound up as one of the two co-lead counsel. So I’m in the meeting room, the big, you know, ballroom at the hotel. I’m back at the food table because there’s free food, I’m loading up, and the buddy A buddy of mine who knew lead counsel was with me. So the lead counsel walks over to talk to him, and my buddy introduces him to me, gives him my name, says, Wait a minute. Dan Karon, you’re the law review guy. Turns out this lead counsel had gone to USF Law School.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:45]

Mhm.

 

Danny Karon  [19:45]

And and he said, “You know what? You’re mr. Law Review. I’m like, “Really? That works for… Oh no, I beg your pardon. He said, “You’re mr. Class Action. It’s even better than mr. Law Review. So where he’s giving out assignments at the all hands meeting, he looks at me and goes, “mr. Class.” Action to the back row. Dan Karon’s going to run thus and such, and people are like deflated because I just ran the table without doing anything but showing up, and it was a mega mega fee when it was all done, and that came totally circuitously, fortuitously by chance. Who quantum physics? Who the hell knows what from writing this article?

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:17]

Yeah,

 

Danny Karon  [20:17]

that can happen. It can not happen, but it can happen. You got to be everywhere once in this business.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:24]

Hey everybody, your next big client might call at 8 p.m. on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up? With Lex Reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer to claim your offer. That’s www.lexreception.com/partner. slash bethatlawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and@lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at rankings.io today. It’s amazing how someone writes an article, maybe doesn’t expect much out of it, but someone, the right person, reads it. If you’re if you know who the target? You’re you’re the right place. Same thing with LinkedIn posts. I’ve had a number of clients that have never posted on LinkedIn. They posted something that went viral, and the next thing you know, they got 45, 50,000 impressions. They got the 100 comments. It’s like, where did that come from? Right? They didn’t know, but they they that’s the new

 

Danny Karon  [22:17]

model. It’s much easier than paying for off prints. But you never. You’re absolutely right. You never know. The only certainty is in doing nothing. I wasn’t content to do nothing, and it’s worked out okay. And now I’m getting out because I’m okay with where I am, and I’ve got a new passion and a new purpose and new goals, and I want to promote those and get something new underway, and it’s kind of crazy to start a new business at age 60. Hope I didn’t age out.

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:43]

Yeah.

 

Danny Karon  [22:44]

That’s what I have.

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:44]

But look, I mean, everyone needs another chapter. I mean, you know, some people just want to do the same thing over and over for their whole life. I mean, I’ve I’ve been coaching people for 25 years. I’ve been working with lawyers for 18. I created this Be That Lawyer community, which now is over 100 members. It’s an online community, an app on your phone. I’ve been promoting the junk out of it, and you know, we’re talking to bar associations, we’re talking to a lot of people about it, and it’s getting good momentum. But like that’s like what’s new, like what’s your passion, and what can you move to? There are lawyers that also want to get out and maybe go and do something different, maybe do a startup, right? Maybe You’re

 

Narrator  [23:19]

right. But you are right, though.

 

Danny Karon  [23:20]

Some folks just they they’re in it for the long haul. We were supposed to meet earlier today, but I had to kick it because I had a hearing, and it turns out that one of the guys in the hearing, this is old codger, been around forever, older than dirt. He’s on the Zoom. He’s like from here up, you know, and he’s still doing it. He’s still bringing it, bringing class action, and thinking, oh, my God, is do his kids hate him? Is he estranged from his wife? I mean, I don’t know what his model is. Is it just for sport, because he doesn’t need the money? Does he have no other interests? Yeah. I don’t know, I don’t care, but I don’t want it to be me. This is fine. You can tell the enthusiasm I’m speaking with is because I genuinely dig what I’m trying to do here. Yeah. And I think it matters. Nobody I’ve told this idea to has said that’s a stupid idea. Yeah. You know, it’s a good idea. I just got to get the word out, so I’m grateful to you and your platform for helping me advertise it here. Yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:06]

Well, what’s even a better idea is getting someone as famous as me to be on the show. I’m just pushing for a role, man, at this point. Come on.

 

Danny Karon  [24:13]

Yeah. If Tom Cruise can’t step up, I mean I mean, that’s it. That’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:16]

I I I doubled for him when I did my Risky Business slide across the floor and blew out my blew out my shoulder. But that that’s about it. So, all right. So, let’s wrap this all up in a nice in a nice, neat bow and and say, you know, look, business development important, yes. Building your brand, very important. And ultimately, it allows you to make decisions in your life that allow you to have another chapter and go in a different direction. I mean, people that don’t have two nickels to rub together, very hard to leave a situation. They’re actually trapped in the situation because there’s no alternatives. And you I think you’ve done a great job of opening up a door for yourself.

 

Danny Karon  [24:54]

Well, it didn’t come easily. I mean, I don’t know how far open the door is yet, but I mean that I’m able to do this, all I’ve done is spend money on this brand. But I really think It’s going one way. It’s going. Yeah, I said to my wife, I said I’ve never felt better Without jinxing, of course, I’ve never felt better about something I’ve worked on than this. I really think there’s a place and space for it, and I’m committed to seeing it through. So, yeah, the book is a real thing. I mean, it’s not self-published. It’s like a real book with a real publisher and Simon & Schuster is distributing it. And that and a nickel gets you pretty much a nickel, because there are a lot of books out there. But you get on shows, you hustle, you grind, and you keep building brand. It’s all about brand. You’re totally, totally right. Yeah. Awesome, man. All right, well, you knew this was coming. We all knew it was coming. What’s Danny’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:34]

big mistake?

 

Danny Karon  [25:36]

I never played that well with others, so I started at a big firm here. That didn’t go so well. I went to a smaller firm. That didn’t go so well. I went to another one. That didn’t go so well. Went to my own firm with some guys, that ended in a cascade of profanity where I dressed them all down and I quit on the spot. And it wasn’t even that dramatic. I mean, you can’t even slam the phone down these days anymore. Yeah, right. Like how do you Hit the hit the

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:56]

iPhone really hard? That’s it.

 

Danny Karon  [25:58]

That’s no that’s no fun. But it did. And after I quit my own firm, the first person I called wasn’t my wife. It was my dad. My dad keeps coming up in this podcast. And he was golfing, I remember, and I said, Dad, I just told my partners this and such. I think I quit. He’s like, Yeah, I think it’s a pretty safe bet that you did. I said, I didn’t have the good sense to go in with you then 25 years ago. Would you like to go in together now? And he said, If you want me to come on board, come on board. So, if you go to my website, you’ll see me and him on the website. He’s Of Counsel, so, but not even really. He’s not even Yeah. He’s not even taking CLEs anymore, like continuing legal education classes. He’s just kind of a counselor. And then I called my wife and I told her what I’d done and what I’d said. And after what felt like an interminable silence, I remember distinctly what she said, which was simply, What took you so long? So

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:45]

Okay.

 

Danny Karon  [26:45]

and I’m I mean I’m in business 12 years since then.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:48]

Oh, my god. Well, that would have been a dream come true, working with my dad. I mean, I had him on my If you guys probably already know this, but I had him on my 200th show, the late great Larry the Lawyer, 87 years old, interviewed. Yeah, you’ll check that out, Danny. It is I listened to it, now and then when I need a good cry because I miss him every day, but he was an absolute rock star, didn’t know a thing about business development and branding and marketing, but he did it every day. He just didn’t know it. He just didn’t know it. He wouldn’t call it that. He didn’t know it. And A lot of lawyers don’t know it. when we talk on the podcast, it becomes very clear he was developing relationships at the courthouse. He was developing relationships in the room he was in, at the boardroom level. Wherever he was, everyone knew Larry was the smartest guy in the room and, and always got referrals that way, so never had a never had to worry about business, I mean, that he ever

 

Danny Karon  [27:38]

That’s great.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:38]

Yeah.

 

Danny Karon  [27:39]

Isn’t that a great position to be in?

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:41]

Yeah. Better better

 

Danny Karon  [27:42]

than better than answering discovery.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:44]

Yeah, he also he also told me he also told me, you know, If you ever have a chance to work for yourself, take it. And I did, you know, you know, over 20 years ago. It’s been 22 years now I’ve been on my own, and I never look back, and I I can’t even imagine

 

Danny Karon  [27:58]

Scary as hell though, isn’t it? It was

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:00]

it was scary. It was scary, but every every month and every year got easier and better, and, you know, once you start like once you start bringing in business, and you realize you can, you know, you’re doing

 

Danny Karon  [28:09]

Yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:10]

repeatable

 

Danny Karon  [28:10]

Once the checks start coming in

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:12]

Yeah.

 

Danny Karon  [28:12]

or better yet, clearing. Never mind coming in. Once they start clearing.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:15]

Yeah, clearing is good. Clearing is good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, man. People want to people want to get in touch with you. They want to hear more about your book, about your show, and all that. They want to get in touch. What do they get What do they got to do?

 

Danny Karon  [28:25]

Go to my website, yourlovablelawyer.com. Everything you need is there.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:29]

Yeah. Great to hear from folks. That’s amazing. Amazing.

 

Danny Karon  [28:32]

Yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:32]

All right, let’s also take a moment to thank our incredible sponsors, PILMMA’s Super Summit coming up in October. Last chance, guys. Get in while you can. Rankings.io, great friends of the show, Lawyer.com, and of course Lex Reception. Some some fantastic people there. And listen, Danny, thanks, man. I appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom. Really exciting stuff, and I you have my support. I’ll help promote you. I’m excited with everything you’re doing, man.

 

Danny Karon  [28:56]

You’re so sweet. Thank you. It was great. It was really nice. And offline, we’ll pick a day to get together because we’re in the same town.

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:01]

Yeah. I’d like that. I’d like that a lot. All right, thank you, Danny, and thank you everybody for hanging out with us. You guys know what it’s all about, building that book, owning your future. Be that lawyer. Take care, be safe, and well, we will talk again soon.

 

Narrator  [29:16]

Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.

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