Robert Hanna: Unlocking Legal Success Through Podcasting, Recruiting, and Community Building

By Steve Fretzin on September 26, 2024

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Robert Hanna discuss:

Podcasting as a business development tool
Building and engaging a legal community
Strategies for growing a personal or firm brand
Leveraging LinkedIn and legal technology for career advancement

Key Takeaways:

Launching a podcast differentiates a business, builds client relationships, and establishes a brand by offering valuable content over direct sales approaches.
Consistent content creation and social media engagement, especially on LinkedIn, enhances professional visibility and opens doors to opportunities and collaborations.
Mistakes in podcasting, like generic episode titles or ineffective video strategies, limit growth potential, highlighting the need for strategic digital marketing efforts.
Focusing on long-term benefits of building a community or brand is essential, as the cost of inaction (missing key opportunities) outweighs immediate return on investment.

“We were the first legal recruitment firm in the world to launch a podcast, and that was a great way to build thought leadership, produce content, and utilize social where certain people were behind.” — Robert Hanna

Read Steve’s past episodes as Blogcasts—visit now: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/

Thank you to our Sponsors!

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Episode References:

Legal Operations in the Age of AI and Data (edited by Olga Mack, Humira Noorestani, and Memme Onwudiwe): https://www.amazon.com/Legal-Operations-Age-AI-Data/dp/1837230099/

About Robert Hanna: Robert Hanna is the Founder & Managing Director of KC Partners, a UK-based global leader in legal talent solutions and content creation. He helps legal professionals secure roles across the UK, Europe, the Middle East, Far East, and the US, and has been featured in leading publications like The Lawyer and Law.com. Rob is a LinkedIn Top Voice, host of the Legally Speaking Podcast, and co-founder of the Great Big Legal Offsite. He advises legal tech startups, mentors, and advocates for mental health, diversity, and inclusion, drawing inspiration from his grandfather’s legacy in law.

Connect with Robert Hanna:

Website: https://legallyspeakingpodcast.com/

Legally Speaking Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/legally-speaking-podcast/id1485892170

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberthanna/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey listeners, I know you’re getting a ton of amazing tips from our expert guests here on the show, but keeping track of them can be a challenge, I know that. That’s why I’ve created blogcasts, the perfect way to capture the best insights from every episode. Each blog cast condenses an entire show into a two page summary packed with key takeaways that you can apply right away.

[00:00:21] Steve Fretzin: Head over to Fretzin. com slash blog to start reading, learning, and taking action. Let these blog casts help you on your journey to be that lawyer with Fretzin. Now enjoy the show.

[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:57] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are rocking and a rolling every single week, twice a week, bringing you great guests, great content, things to help you live that best lawyer’s life. Unfortunately, today we’ve got a terrible guest. He’s probably the worst guest I’ve ever had on.

[00:01:14] Steve Fretzin: No, I’m just kidding. It’s Rob Han, everybody. I love Rob Hanna. He’s one of my favorite people. I’m obviously goofing, starting off in a silly way this morning, but how’s it going, Rob?

[00:01:23] Robert Hanna: Well, Steve, it’s an absolute honor to be a returned guest on your show. And yeah, I think you’re an amazing podcaster. I know you and I share lots of shared visions in this space and I just admire what you’re doing and the community you’ve built and everything you’ve done.

[00:01:36] Robert Hanna: So it’s a pleasure to catch up again with you over the mic.

[00:01:38] Steve Fretzin: Well, I’m just trying to follow in your footsteps, man. You’re the podcast master and the community building master. So I’m just, I’m just dragging behind you trying to keep up. But you know, I think when we get together though, we’re always smiling.

[00:01:49] Steve Fretzin: We’re always having a great conversation. We’re talking about our favorite Reds Premier League team. Liverpool and, and just continually trying to, you know, you just, I think you’re just such an innovator in the space. And so let’s start off with our quote of the show. I’ve heard this before many times and I, I, I would love for my teenager to have this on a t shirt or something and, and follow it, but he’s not going to.

[00:02:09] Steve Fretzin: The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding. Boy, does that scream business development or what?

[00:02:16] Robert Hanna: Yeah, it’s so, it’s so hard hitting. And I remember when I heard it first from from a mentor, I took a double check and then actually, like you say, you think you really kind of dwell on those words and you think actually, if you just took one extra action from that thing, you’re putting more away, avoiding, particularly from a business development perspective, it could just be writing down something to then take the next step to whatever it’d be.

[00:02:39] Robert Hanna: But yeah, it really hit home for me. And so, yeah, I’m glad you enjoyed it and shared it with your community too.

[00:02:44] Steve Fretzin: But like when we talk about, you know, how difficult it is to build, and we will talk about how difficult and challenging it is to build a community and to run a successful podcast and all these things.

[00:02:54] Steve Fretzin: That’s, you know, that’s hard. And so when things are hard, people avoid it. People avoid losing weight. People avoid stop drinking. People avoid, I mean, there’s a lot of things that we avoid because they’re hard. And unfortunately, that’s sort of the key to life and success is you gotta get through the hard stuff and then, you know, life gets easier.

[00:03:10] Steve Fretzin: You just have to, you have to work that up the hill and you get to walk down the hill. It’s, it’s pretty, pretty straightforward. Hey everybody, so Rob Hanna is the founder and CEO of KC Partners. He and I have been buddies for, what, a couple years now? At least two, three, four years?

[00:03:24] Robert Hanna: Yeah, absolutely. We’re always sharing contacts or insights and yeah, just a really nice collaborative kind of relationship we’ve got and I really enjoy it.

[00:03:31] Robert Hanna: Yeah.

[00:03:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And so we’re going to have a really engaging conversation today, but let’s, let’s take a step back, Rob. Just give everybody a little bit of insight about your background and you know, the, the business you’re in, but then also kind of like how you, cause you’re one of the few people that has spun it off into something much greater than just the job that you perform.

[00:03:49] Robert Hanna: Yeah. So very, very briefly I come from a legal family. So my whole reason why I’m in the legal family, a world similar to Steve is my grandfather was a lawyer. So I started my career in the city of London over here in the UK and in the the business district in the recruiting world I earned my stripes various years, and then ultimately went to a boutique company, helped scale that, and then I thought I wanted to use the skills that I’ve acquired in that industry to then set up my own legal career.

[00:04:15] Robert Hanna: Headhunting business. So that’s really what happened and I realized very quickly that it was super competitive, you know, there were lots of competitors out there. So I knew I needed to have an innovative different strategy. So that was when I started thinking very early 2019. And we were the first legal recruitment firm in the world to launch a podcast.

[00:04:33] Robert Hanna: And so, you know, that was a great way to build thought leadership, produce content, utilize social where certain people were behind, you know, back to that quote, the magic you’re looking for is the work you’re avoiding. It would be very easy to try and imitate what the competitors were doing and do the same thing, but with years behind, or try and do something new, different, break down some doors, try and try a different way.

[00:04:52] Robert Hanna: That was really kind of my approach. And then fast forward to today as you know, we’re sponsored by the world’s largest 3 billion legal tech company in Clio, I’ve also moved into the events world. I host an event called the great big legal offsite, which again has spun off off the back of the legally speaking podcast, which is all around providing small to midsize law firms, future proofing their law firm strategies.

[00:05:13] Robert Hanna: I’ve invested in legal tech businesses. So I sit on the board of some exciting, innovative AI legal tech focused businesses. And of course I help people with their career transitions as well. And I take a real passion for that. And I say, we don’t play somebody in a job once we place them throughout their career.

[00:05:26] Robert Hanna: So we’re all about helping them throughout their journey. And it’s all for me to leave a legacy that my grandfather first started in the 1950s to build this kind of kind, collaborative, thriving legal community.

[00:05:37] Steve Fretzin: This is not, this is a little off topic, but I’m always curious. I mean, the unemployment rate for lawyers in the U.

[00:05:43] Steve Fretzin: S. is at an all time low. I mean, if you want to work and you’re a lawyer, you’re working. Is it the same in the U. K. right now?

[00:05:48] Robert Hanna: Yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s really good demand for you know, we, we went through cycles. So there was a bit of a cycle of low corporate activity. Now, corporate lawyers are becoming very hot in demand over here.

[00:05:58] Robert Hanna: Yeah, I mean, there’s always, for good quality legal talent, there’s always going to be a home for you. But the exciting thing since I started up, it doesn’t just have to be the typical route. You can go into legal project management. You can go into legal technology. You can go into legal design. You can go into all of these things, or maybe you want to transition into different areas.

[00:06:14] Robert Hanna: So there’s so many different careers paths now as legal industry of evolves, where actually people can go. If they don’t necessarily just want to stay and become a partner and have their own firm. But I, I would love to see more people kind of becoming partners, building those big practices and, you know, making those firms, and I know you do a great job of helping people get those, those ones off the

[00:06:30] Steve Fretzin: ground.

[00:06:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. We gotta, I mean, the lawyers that. Are listening to this show know the importance of a book of business. They know how portable that makes them and how how they can laterally do what they want to do. They can go off on their own. They’ve got all these options and the lawyers with their head down.

[00:06:45] Steve Fretzin: And again, I know that’s that this building business isn’t for everybody, but it’s You know, putting your head down and just getting the work done and not developing the relationships, developing the business, you know, that, that might be okay for now, but in 10 years, you know, that’s going to be, that’s going to be, you know, concerning for some people as it has been, as it has been for people that, that come to me in their 50s and in early 60s and say, Hey, you know what, the work has stopped and the flow has stopped.

[00:07:10] Steve Fretzin: And what do I do? But that’s actually not our topic today. Our topic today is really about podcasting and community building and, and the importance of that. And, and, and again, there’s a lot of different ways to build a brand and build a business. And but let’s start off with the story of, of how you got into podcasting.

[00:07:30] Steve Fretzin: Cause that’s, that’s, you know, one of your biggest, you know, ways of, of how you’ve built your community and how you build your brand. So talk about how you got started.

[00:07:38] Robert Hanna: Yeah, so it really was a long term business development strategy. So as I referenced before, I didn’t have any contacts in legal when I set up my own legal recruitment business.

[00:07:47] Robert Hanna: I didn’t really know many people, so I needed a way to have outreach, but I didn’t want to reach out to people and say, and you’ll know, Steve, right? You should always lead with a value when you’re trying to start a relationship with You know, think about what’s going to be in it for them, not just necessarily you.

[00:08:00] Robert Hanna: So, I didn’t think I could reach out to them and say, Hey, you’ve never heard of me, you already use all these other people, but would you like to do some business with me and let me hire for you? The likelihood of that happening would be a very low response rate. So what I did was I thought, right, well, how can I add value to these partners in law firms?

[00:08:15] Robert Hanna: How can I add value to the decision makers who potentially will be my future clients? And that’s where I was like, right, podcast is growing. I think a lot of law firms are doing outdated marketing strategies or writing articles that aren’t even SEO compliant, that don’t necessarily get the visibility that the time invested in them actually achieves.

[00:08:32] Robert Hanna: And so I thought, why don’t I pick up the phone and actually reach out to these people and say, Hey, Would you like to feature on a 2019, Steve, these weren’t as novel, these weren’t as much as actually, we weren’t even, these were all in person back then. This wasn’t the age of COVID and Zooms and people hopping on and doing everything.

[00:08:46] Robert Hanna: This was an experience. You’re invited to my office in a studio type environment to sit over a microphone. That’s all well and good, but what’s in it for them? Well, we’re going to share this episode in 5, 000 cities around the world because podcasts are consumed globally, as you’ll know, when you put it onto Apple, Spotify, Google, wherever it may be.

[00:09:03] Robert Hanna: We’re going to repurpose this content. So you give us one hour of your time. We’ll turn this into multi asset. So we’ll turn this into a video. We’ll turn this into an article. We’ll turn this into a blog. What’s again, beneficial to you. It’s actually going to be better than you sending boring, outdated job specs.

[00:09:17] Robert Hanna: We’ll actually help you craft something that’s going to be meaningful. So when you’re looking to attract people. And retain talent. People know about your story, but this is also going to help you get people through the front door. And we’re going to give you a really good solid experience. And we’ll also ensure we share the bed coats.

[00:09:29] Robert Hanna: You can put this on your own firm profile and you get the super enhanced social media strategy where we release everything. We’ll tag you. We’re like, we’ll ensure that you get increased number of followers, you know, engagement leads, you know, brands, all of these things. So. It’s very hard for them to say, go away.

[00:09:43] Robert Hanna: You know, it was a pretty easy yes from them, the way I pitched it. And then I get into their system, I get into their community, I give nothing but value, and they figure it out. It’s like, this shows, and this is the key strategic point that I would make. And every podcast, in my opinion, should have a topic of influence, a T O I and our T O I is legal careers, right?

[00:10:01] Robert Hanna: It should be one or two words. When you put into Google, what is the pain point your podcast is trying to serve or whatever you’re trying to do? What do you want to be known for? And it should be no more than one or two words. So my topic of influence legal careers, that’s a great book on the end, because that’s what I’m doing.

[00:10:17] Robert Hanna: I’m helping people with their legal career transitions and moves. So it was really easy to kind of connect the legally speaking podcast to my mothership company in the end. To then start getting business off the back of it, but I led with value to start with. And that’s really how it grew. And then obviously, as you know, Steve, if you’re consistent, persistent, and you know, you really have a goal and a drive and a passion behind something, things grow and snowball.

[00:10:38] Robert Hanna: And then we started picking up sponsorships. Then we started picking up, you know really kind of good brand ambassador opportunities. And all these different things come from it. And then you start thinking this can be a community. This can build and build and build and be bigger than actually just a business development tool.

[00:10:50] Steve Fretzin: And I feel like community and influencers and all the things that are going on in the last, I mean, maybe more in the last five years than in any time in history. It’s, it’s become such a big deal to be at the top of that pyramid with every, with all your followers and, and all the, you know, the, the people under you that, you know, Support you in what you’re doing and that you’re providing value to that to that community are there specific miss either mistakes you’ve made or or or things that you Jesus if I could have done that again I would have done it differently.

[00:11:21] Robert Hanna: Yeah I mean there’s tons of mistakes and even today you know we’re still learning and tweaking and you know things that we did originally on just podcasting and people thinking about a podcast we were putting the wrong titles on our episodes so you know a title of an episode is precious digital real estate.

[00:11:37] Robert Hanna: So you want to make sure that you’re not just putting like legally speaking podcast episode number one, because nobody’s Googling that. So we kind of understood. And this is the, when you start getting into things, you’ve got to get into the one or 2 percent minutiae details. And similarly, now with, we’ve just gone through a whole new rebrand.

[00:11:51] Robert Hanna: I’m wearing our new legally speaking podcast rebrand. We were doing all our YouTube wrong, right? So we were, we were again, putting the wrong thumbnails out on YouTube. Because we were actually needed to realize, again, it’s precious digital real estate we’re missing, we just needed to put the quote and the visual and the key message as the thumbnail, and then the name of the guest and what it’s about in the subtext.

[00:12:11] Robert Hanna: So you’re always learning, there’s mistakes, there’s things you can be doing, the format of the show yeah, again, we weren’t keeping up with the times, and that’s really important, you can’t stay still, so we were You know, we weren’t putting trailers on the front end, which is actually a big trend night right now with podcasting.

[00:12:25] Robert Hanna: So there’s lots of mistakes and sometimes trying to go for guests and actually probably wasn’t the right guest at that particular time, but you fine tune, you understand what your message is trying to be. You keep moving forwards. You build audience. The key thing actually, sorry, the key point. Lots of people think they’re building community, but a lot of people just want audience, right?

[00:12:42] Robert Hanna: And the difference is in my opinion to an audience and a community Is you genuinely give them value and you engage and you make them feel seen and heard Otherwise, it’s just an audience and what brands want they don’t necessarily want the biggest community, but they want an engaged community Or they want to understand that people in your community really look up to you trust you The thought leadership and content you’re providing is genuinely valuable rather than, Hey, I’ve got a billion followers.

[00:13:08] Robert Hanna: Anyone and anyone follows me and I’ve got an audience. So the real key difference in my opinion is actually a community that is engaged, that values, that interacts, shares feedback, all part of that, and has a voice and actually make them feel seen and heard and they’re the types of people who are going to give you the referral, Steve, like, you know, they’re the sort of people who are going to champion you.

[00:13:25] Robert Hanna: They’re the sort of people that are going to organically through word of mouth, socials, help you grow.

[00:13:29] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I had in that I love that and I love the difference between audience and community and look I don’t have the biggest Community or audience because business development isn’t for everybody if that if I wanted to put something together It was for every lawyer in the country or in the world That’s going to be a very different show Having a show about growing and living you know growing a practice and living your best lawyers life I’m happier with a smaller subset of that community that I can add value for and that gets it and I mean, I’m getting emails on a fairly regular basis.

[00:14:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, love your podcast. I need a coach, let’s talk, or I just love your podcast, keep it up, like things like that, but are there things that you’re doing to, I mean, I know you’re adding value, how do you know that, that it’s connecting, how do you know that, that, that community is, is getting value in that, is there feedback they’re providing for you, or how do they, how do you, is there a way you’re engaging them to get that?

[00:14:21] Robert Hanna: Yeah. I mean, look, we’re always tracking our ratings and reviews 0. 1. You know, what are people are saying about that? We have a community discord, which has around about a thousand members where people can share ideas. When we’re doing events, we’re also asking for feedback and we had some amazing feedback off the back of the first event we did with the great big legal offsite, and I’m going to be doing a lot more.

[00:14:38] Robert Hanna: So yeah, feedback is very important, but also then seeing it in credibility in terms of our people actually going to give us a rating review, our people going to shout about us, are they going to be our sort of, you know, raving fans. So yeah, really, really, really important. But asking them the question as well, not second guessing on content, you know, it’s really important, you know, at the moment, particularly with this AI revolution and everything else going on, that what we’re actually producing is super relevant for what actually where the puck is going.

[00:15:03] Robert Hanna: It’s the famous Wayne Gretzky quote, right? He doesn’t skate where the puck is, he skates where it’s going. And that’s what we really try and focus on with our content is making sure that the content is super relevant, not just now, but also hopefully moving forward. So people can really kind of go back to it and listen.

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[00:16:14] Steve Fretzin: And would you say that podcasting has been the greatest or easiest channel for you to get and build a community, or are there other things that you’re doing outside of podcasting that have helped you build a following in a community that you have?

[00:16:29] Robert Hanna: Yeah, I always say there’s a WAB strategy, right? So I am rubbish at writing.

[00:16:33] Robert Hanna: WAB’s strategy is written audio video. I am rubbish at writing. You know, I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not the great drafter. I’m not particularly good at quite a lot of things, but one thing I think where I potentially do well is communicating. And, and so through sort of verbal communication, I played to my strengths, you know, in terms of more audio.

[00:16:51] Robert Hanna: And obviously in recent times, then you switched to the video. So absolutely podcasting has been a. been a game changer for me, but I would also say the real game changer for me and I have to give credit to it because the best platform in the world is LinkedIn. I’ve been posting on LinkedIn every day for the last five years and it’s changed my life.

[00:17:08] Robert Hanna: I’ve been on the LinkedIn creator accelerator programs, I’m LinkedIn top voice, I’ve been invited to their offices, I’ve had some of the biggest brands in the world come around to me, I’ve had all of these opportunities, amazing people around the world. I don’t say that to brag, I say that because If you truly invest in a platform where your audience is, and LinkedIn is where most, I’m assuming everyone listening to the show’s audience is, it’s amazing what you can achieve in terms of actually potential for your career, your business and, and, and whatever it may be that you’re, you’re passionate about.

[00:17:35] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And not to go down a rabbit hole with LinkedIn, but I, I feel like I was way ahead of the curve on LinkedIn. I mean, going back probably 16, 17 years, I was teaching LinkedIn and I’d have 50 people in a room and I’d say, How many of you were, you know, actively on LinkedIn and maybe like five hands would go up.

[00:17:51] Steve Fretzin: And now today, if I asked, every hand would go up. Then of course, if I follow through with how many of you are actually getting business or building brand on LinkedIn, then, you know, most of the hands come down. So it’s like one thing to be there. It’s another to, to utilize it as a tool. To build community and, and, and add value for people because it’s like great for you to do a podcast, but if you’re not using the magic of repurposing, repurposing the transcripts for articles, repurposing the, the, this for a video, right?

[00:18:20] Steve Fretzin: You and I are talking, but we’re on video. We can repurpose that as you said, and what, how, where are we putting that? And where, you know, and so lawyers, I think need to think about content creation And one of the easiest ways to get it is by doing a podcast because you’re getting all of those, the written, the video, and the audio all in one shot and you’re having fun.

[00:18:42] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I’m having fun every time I do an episode. I get happy. I just get into like a happy place where I’m talking to a friend. Even if it’s someone new, I feel like we’re connecting, we’re talking, we’re sharing, having a shared experience, doing something together. And building building value for a group.

[00:18:57] Steve Fretzin: So that’s, so I just, I don’t know, like, are there suggestions that you would give to lawyers who are Thinking about a podcast, but maybe haven’t pulled the trigger yet. Yeah you don’t need to overcomplicate it,

[00:19:07] Robert Hanna: you know, this is the thing, you know, obviously you’ll look around and you’ll look at established shows, you know, Steve, yours is hugely successful, very established, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes, you know, incredible guests, yeah, okay, you’re not going to be that from day one, but you don’t need to be.

[00:19:21] Robert Hanna: Think about your audience. And I was coming back to this, the topic of influence. So if you’re a corporate M& A lawyer, for example, right, what is the biggest pain point that you’re traditionally seeing within the industry? And this is if you want to do a business podcast for, you know, obviously if you’re doing a hobby one or a personal one, totally different.

[00:19:36] Robert Hanna: But if you’re looking to a. Attract clients or attract people then as a corporate M& A lawyer What are the key things that people are asking about? What are your client requirements or what are the key things going on in that industry? That are really going to be super valuable not only now But in the future and be by the way a podcast could just be you It doesn’t always have to be a guest focus So it could just be you for five five minutes and by the way Lower consumption podcast lengths actually do better.

[00:20:01] Robert Hanna: So you could do five minutes a week in terms of you know Here’s my top five corporate tips. You know, if you’re thinking about a business, talking to business owners or wherever your end clients are, or these are the structured problems that we’re structuring a business right now. So you can be really transfixed on that topic of influence and then just start.

[00:20:17] Steve Fretzin: Let me, let me just stop you for one second. You could do 12 episodes in an hour. You could just record. 12 five minute clips and now you have the next number of months. If you put one out a week, for example, you’ve got the next number of months handle. And I don’t think lawyers realize like that. It’s probably more about the prep for that.

[00:20:35] Steve Fretzin: Like, how do I prepare for that? And then I think they worry about the editing and the producing and all the stuff. And we’re going to address that in a minute, but at least continue.

[00:20:42] Robert Hanna: Yeah. I mean, it could be as simple as, but I mean, but this is where AI is super useful now, right? You can, you can download the PDF of someone off LinkedIn.

[00:20:49] Robert Hanna: You can put that into chat, GBT. You can go to their firm bio or whatever it may be, put that into chatGBT, provide a framework prompt, Provide 10 to 20 thought provoking, interesting questions that are going to be tailored to this particular audience. Focused on this, touching on this, this, this, and this, and I’ll do it for you.

[00:21:06] Robert Hanna: It’s almost like, it’s too easy now for people not to kind of really utilize these tools to get good quality intel and information. And the other thing, by the way, going back to the corporate M& A partner example is, invite your clients on. What a great way to give that value add. Hey, I’ll shine a light on you.

[00:21:20] Robert Hanna: You can go and do a shout out for your company. You’re just about to do an IPO. You’re just about to do a joint venture, or you’ve just merged, or you know, you’ve just sold out, or whatever it might be. Like, what a great way for you to then come and bring in that case study. And then you could say to them, well, what were you thinking about from a corporate lawyer perspective?

[00:21:34] Robert Hanna: How, you know, and they could always, you know, Give you a little bit of flattery, actually really enjoyed your service Susie or John and what you did. So, there’s lots of ways you can slice and dice it. But I think just starting, keeping it super simple and organically growing is a good thing. I definitely think you need to have a video editor now though, because the game, YouTube is just, you’ve got to be there.

[00:21:52] Robert Hanna: I think because people want to see you know, and I think we’re speaking offline now you know, consumption of content is so high, but also people’s attention spans are so low. So, you know, you’ve got to be able to create this micro content that’s really good for these platforms on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, etc.

[00:22:08] Robert Hanna: Because that’s really where people are going to consume your content. And so if you can get used to talking in soundbites and doing good clips, then you’ll do really, really well.

[00:22:16] Steve Fretzin: And the other thing is it’s, it, it, it can be intimidating to think about creating something on zoom, for example, and then the editing and the production and how does that, where does it go?

[00:22:26] Steve Fretzin: And how do you get the transcript and all that? I are a production team. I’ve been using turnkey podcast out of LA for, I don’t know, since the day one, like I didn’t even, I didn’t try this on my own. And I, the investment is, is nominal in comparison to the return on that investment. Jeremy Weiss in in my neighborhood here in Chicago is great.

[00:22:46] Steve Fretzin: There’s, they’re, they’re everywhere. So think about the idea that you could find someone to help set it up for you, help create the, you know, the, the account, help set up your logo, whatever you need, your background, whatever it is that you want to do, that you don’t have to do that by yourself. There’s lots of people that can walk you through how to do it and then keep you on track to actually produce content on a regular basis.

[00:23:09] Steve Fretzin: So you could, because I think, yeah, right, Rob, you got to stay consistent with it.

[00:23:12] Robert Hanna: Yeah, and you know, you can set up scheduling links and things like that to make sure that, you know, people can easily just book into your, your, your show, which obviously I know you do, Steven. So yeah, you do have to be super, super consistent.

[00:23:23] Robert Hanna: But I think podcasting is, again, people might be thinking, yeah, but actually what’s the, the ROI, right? They’ll be like, okay, it’s not a podcast, but it’s still my time. I charge a thousand bucks or 500 bucks an hour. You know, it’s still going to cost me, you know, this to do that. Or I need to get my marketing team involved.

[00:23:37] Robert Hanna: I say, forget the ROI narrative. Think of the COI narrative, the cost of opportunity. You know, the cost of inaction, not the return on investment. The cost of inaction was the cost of inaction to someone else. Let’s say there’s another corporate lawyer that goes and sets up that podcast, does that, and it becomes one of the biggest branded.

[00:23:54] Robert Hanna: Podcast ever and you were just so transfixed on there now and the today and the ROI that actually your COI is so high and actually they’ve then got really good inbound leads coming from that they’ve built their own brand, they’ve turned it into a real community and they’re really modern, they’re really meeting their clients where they’re at.

[00:24:10] Robert Hanna: And future clients and where that generation is above beneath them are coming through. So I think, really think of the cost of action of not doing anything. And again, the magic you’re looking for is in the work you’re avoiding. And I think that links nicer to the COI. I

[00:24:22] Steve Fretzin: mean, think about, yeah, forget everything about content, forget everything about return on investment.

[00:24:27] Steve Fretzin: The, the, the, one of the top things that I’m going to put out there for everybody is. The new relationships I’ve developed, I would never would have met you, Rob, if we hadn’t swapped podcasts and done that type of thing. And I just think about the 400 and whatever, 30 episodes I’ve done, the people I’ve met, I’m running a legal tech.

[00:24:45] Steve Fretzin: I want to invite you to that, but I’m running like a legal tech round table now with the legal tech people that I’ve had on my show because they want to talk and I’m just kind of sitting back and kind of hosting. But like all of these brilliant people, these brilliant rain making lawyers, these brilliant legal experts like yourself.

[00:25:01] Steve Fretzin: Thank you. I never would have met and the referral opportunity is, is even secondary in some ways to the, just the relationship and the fun and the, and, and just the ability to refer and the ability to have this big network that you can, that adds value to your clients in, in, in your life. And my life feels more fulfilled having done this podcast, certainly more than the books I’ve written, and I’m happy about the books I’ve written.

[00:25:24] Steve Fretzin: I’m happy about the articles and the publishing I’ve done. That’s but that’s dry boring and uninteresting to me compared to the relay. I’m a relationship guy, right? So i’m this is what I love

[00:25:35] Robert Hanna: and I think the the key well, there’s two points i’ve mentioned There’s nothing stronger than a than a human connection I talk a lot about what’s no longer b2b b2c and I may have mentioned this before in the show It’s h2h it’s human to human connection And what a great way to connect with someone over a podcast allowing them to share their story their insights You shine a light on them You really look after them.

[00:25:54] Robert Hanna: I think that’s great. The other key thing that I think really super boosts your, your brand and opportunity of podcast is I’m sat here over in England, you’re sat there in America, you’re going to share this with your audience in America. My brand is exponentially going to increase for giving you an hour of my time coming on your show.

[00:26:10] Robert Hanna: Your brand is going to exponentially increase because I’m going to share this with my community over here in the UK. It’s a great two way value exchange with brew bringing new audience. So again, Let’s say you’re a corporate lawyer and you’re looking to try and attract more clients in France or it might be in wherever.

[00:26:23] Robert Hanna: If you bring on a guest within that jurisdiction and they’ve got a good audience or a good message, then you’re instantly breaking down doors and it’s a good business development strategy.

[00:26:31] Steve Fretzin: And you don’t have to find the guests. I mean, you can start off finding the guests, but I’m, I’m getting, I’ll say, two to five inquiries a week.

[00:26:40] Steve Fretzin: For people that want to be on my show and that could be directly from the lawyers that want to get on the show or it can be from there’s like Hundreds of maybe thousands of like podcast pr companies now that have come out of the woodwork To essentially like represent lawyers and legal experts to get them on different shows and here’s the funny thing too Like if they hit me up, it’s like I comma so my name isn’t there.

[00:27:04] Steve Fretzin: We love your show Right, and then it’s like you could tell it’s like fill in the blank here And then it’s like and then they give me like three legal topics, you know estate planning but but but I’m just like, okay So this person doesn’t know my show They don’t know it’s about legal growth, whatever.

[00:27:17] Steve Fretzin: And I can, I just respond and go, you might want to check out the show and maybe add my name in there if you’re gonna, you know, unless you’re a bot, you know.

[00:27:24] Robert Hanna: Can I give, can I give a really good strategy for lawyers that are looking to get onto podcast? Oh, that’s great. Yes. You know, maybe you, you, you kind of want to start your own, by the way, the best tip I can give you before starting your own is be a guest on other people’s podcast.

[00:27:35] Robert Hanna: A hundred percent. I’m not putting Steve on the spot, but if you, if you, and this is how I would write to Steve, I wanted to get on his show, by the way, you should go on Steve’s show, because he’s already got an engaged audience, he’s got a huge community, he’s a thought leader, he’s trusted, he’s done 430 episodes, so before you launch your own show, if Steve then shares your show, you can then start bouncing some of Steve’s audience back into yours, but you don’t write to Steve like that, hi, come on, You say, Hi Steve, you know, by the way, just before I jump in, I’ve just left you five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and I’ve left you a review because your episode with Rob Hanna about podcasting insights, I’ve learned two or three incredible things that have actually really inspired me to want to start my own podcasting.

[00:28:15] Robert Hanna: It’s incredible that you’ve done 430 episodes. I love your content. I love your brand. This is where I set, this is the topic I think will be valuable to your audience in terms of, I know your sweet spot when it comes to business development. What I’m going to do for you as a guest is I’m going to come on and share this concept, but post that I understand the importance of distribution.

[00:28:32] Robert Hanna: I’m going to share this to my 5, 000 followers. I’m also going to share it with my internal marketing team within my law firm to make sure this is distributed out. And I’m going to make sure I repurpose this for myself and tag you in all the backlinks. So if you’re interested, please let me know. A value exchange.

[00:28:46] Steve Fretzin: What am I not going to respond to that? Of course, I’m going to respond to that. You know, I, I, I’m very enthusiastic about meeting new people and getting them on my show if they have value to add, obviously, if they’re complimentary, that doesn’t hurt, you know, right? I mean, it’s the little ego stroke here and there doesn’t hurt.

[00:29:02] Steve Fretzin: But be, but be, be be yourself, be honest, be real, and, and actually listen to the show. And, and, and, and, and, you know, it’s a terrible thing. Yeah, I mean, it’s a terrible show. Maybe don’t say anything, but like, you know, but if it’s a great show and you got value and again, if you’re starting a podcast, you know, offer to put podcast people like me and Rob and others on your show, because it’s going to help you grow your brand, but also figure out how to help them, figure out how to add value.

[00:29:28] Steve Fretzin: And, and be a great guest, right? You know, really, really share a lot of wisdom that’s going to be valuable for that audience. And that puts everybody, you know, right, all, you know was it rising tides all, raise all ships? What’s that saying?

[00:29:40] Robert Hanna: Yeah, lift all

[00:29:40] Steve Fretzin: boats.

[00:29:41] Robert Hanna: Yeah,

[00:29:41] Steve Fretzin: absolutely. Lift all boats? Yeah.

[00:29:42] Robert Hanna: And I, and I think the other key thing is maybe some people don’t want to do the outreach email.

[00:29:45] Robert Hanna: I get it. Well, here’s another indirect strategy. Pick up an episode of Steve’s that you’ve enjoyed, do a LinkedIn post about it, what you learned from it, what you enjoyed from it, tag Steve, tag the guest. Ask people for engagement. What are your thoughts on this? Steve’s going to jump in on that post and say, thank you so much for sharing my, my episode.

[00:30:02] Robert Hanna: Really enjoyed it. Great bang straight into his direct message. Then from there, Steve, thanks so much. You’ve really inspired me. You’ve started, you’ve led with value, right? You’re sharing Steve’s episode. You’re sharing his podcast, but you’re not just doing like, Oh, I like this. You you’re offering something that’s valuable that builds on Steve’s brand, but also shows that you’re interested in him and what he has to say.

[00:30:20] Robert Hanna: You’re more likely to then jump into getting a podcast spot off the back of that.

[00:30:25] Steve Fretzin: Well, I started off joking that this was going to be the worst interview, and of course I was joking because I knew right away it was going to be one of the best interviews. I mean, folks, listen up. This is, I mean, Rob is the real deal.

[00:30:34] Steve Fretzin: He’s, he’s giving you gem after gem after gem. Unfortunately, we have to wrap up with our game changing book. Now, this is interesting because I’m not a huge legal, I mean, I’m dangerous in legal tech, but I’m not like brilliant like a lot of these guys I have on the show and gals I have on the show. The one that you’re, there’s a book that came out called Legal Operations in the Age of AI and Data.

[00:30:55] Steve Fretzin: Yep. Take 30 seconds on that book because that’s something not everybody’s going to pick up, but I think it’s interesting to, to hear about.

[00:31:01] Robert Hanna: Yeah, it was a huge collaboration across 30 or 40 legal professionals around the world. It’s actually edited by my good friend, Olga Mack, who some of you may know and it touches on all the different areas of the legal profession from actually, how do you use legal technology within your law firm through to people, a big people part of it.

[00:31:20] Robert Hanna: So, you know, how do you ensure through legal technology and legal design that you’re actually managing your people correctly, you’re keeping them inspired, you’re keeping them motivated, Through to a whole host of different topics, but it’s all about looking forwards. And it’s a really good Bible because it’s picking wisdom of people who are practicing now.

[00:31:36] Robert Hanna: Who have done it, who have been there, who are either running their firms, who are adopting it. So yeah, go check it out. Legal operations in the age of AI and data. We all know data is the new gold and AI is not a once in a revolution opportunity. It’s a once in a species opportunity. So this is the time to really get educated and go and dive into it.

[00:31:54] Steve Fretzin: Fantastic, man. Wrapping up, I want to thank our sponsors, of course, Rankings. io helping those personal injury lawyers get leads. And of course, Rainmaker Roundtable with Fretzin. I’ve been running that for now four years. If you’re a Rainmaker managing partner and you want to get off your proverbial island and hang out with other brilliant, very ambitious attorneys that are all goal oriented, this is the place to be.

[00:32:16] Steve Fretzin: We’re not just putzing around. We actually all have goals that we’re holding each other accountable to. And talk and shop on a regular basis. And I am on the ticket as a coach for that group and for the new members. So check that out on my website, Fretzin. com. And Rob, if people want to get in touch with you, let’s give a plug for the podcast.

[00:32:33] Steve Fretzin: Let’s give a plug for your business and let’s give out the digits.

[00:32:36] Robert Hanna: Yeah, sure. Best place to reach me is on LinkedIn. It’s just Robert Hanna. You can find me there. Feel free to go and check out the Legally Speaking podcast sponsored by Clio. We are on Apple, Spotify you name it, GoodPods. We’re, we’re everywhere you listen to your podcast.

[00:32:50] Robert Hanna: It’s An interesting show. It’s all around, you know, the world of law and more. And by the way, I’m going to be in the U. S. So if any of your U. S. people are planning on going to CleoCon, which is one of the largest legal tech conferences in the world, I’m going to be in Austin Texas from the 7th to the 9th of October.

[00:33:04] Robert Hanna: So if anyone wants to come along, I’m going to be live podcasting there. If you mention you’re a fan of Steve’s show, I’ll make sure I’ll give you a five minute interview that I like.

[00:33:10] Steve Fretzin: Ah, okay. Wow. All right. Well, listen, head down to Austin. I’m actually heading down there for winter break with my family on a vacation.

[00:33:16] Steve Fretzin: So But yeah, yeah, but Cleo kind of sounds like, like a load of fun and I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of great, a lot of great value there. Thanks Rob, man. I just, I just think the world of you, man, I’m, I, we always have a great conversation and I just appreciate you coming back on the show and sharing your wisdom as you, as you Have so much of it.

[00:33:33] Robert Hanna: Yeah. Thanks, Steve. I really, really appreciate it. And yeah, looking forward to more collaborations in the future.

[00:33:37] Steve Fretzin: Yes. Yes. All right. Fantastic. And thank you everybody for spending time on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. Just help, you know, every single episode, just try to pull one or two things out of it.

[00:33:48] Steve Fretzin: That’s going to benefit you. Just an idea a tactical actionable thing that you can do. And I know it isn’t easy, but it’s important. And so you want to make sure you do it. Focus on growing that community, growing that law practice and living the dream. So take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.

[00:34:08] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.

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