Robert Armstrong & Sandy Fisch: Why Most Law Firms Never Scale

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Robert Armstrong, and Sandy Fisch discuss:

• Legal expertise without systems limits growth
• Focus outperforms expansion without infrastructure
• Value-based models outperform time-based billing in an AI-driven future
• Future-proof firms are systemized, collaborative, and diversified

Key Takeaways:

• Most firms are built by technicians who understand legal work but not business operations. Sustainable firms require deliberate work on systems, strategy, and management.
• Deep specialization strengthens results, clarity, and scale. Expanding practice areas too early dilutes effectiveness and increases operational drag.
• Hourly billing weakens as automation accelerates legal work. Flat-fee pricing combined with strong human relationships aligns better with efficiency and client outcomes.
• Recurring revenue, acquisition-ready structures, and trusted peer communities reduce dependence on individuals. Long-term resilience comes from systems, relationships, and adaptive business models.

“There’s a difference between working on the business and working in the business.” —  Sandy Fisch

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About Robert Armstrong: Robert Armstrong is President of the American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys and co-founder of Armstrong, Fisch & Tutoli, a leading San Diego estate planning firm. A U.S. Navy veteran and summa cum laude graduate of UC San Diego, he earned his Juris Doctor from the University of San Diego in 1976.

A recognized thought leader in estate planning, Robert has authored several books, including The E-Myth Attorney, and has been quoted in national publications such as the Wall Street Journal. He frequently appears on television as an estate planning expert.

Robert lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, with his wife, Jennifer, and enjoys reading, daily workouts, and time outdoors with his family.

About Sandy Fisch: Sanford Fisch is a principal at Armstrong, Fisch & Tutoli, a leading San Diego estate planning firm recognized nationwide for excellence. He co-founded the American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys to help attorneys and law firms improve their skills and practices.

Known for expertise and enthusiasm, Sanford seeks more effective ways to serve clients, support fellow attorneys, and advance the practice of estate planning law across the United States.

Connect with Robert Armstrong & Sandy Fisch:

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00]Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin here and welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. We are the go-to show if you’re looking to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And so hopefully you’re checking us out twice a week. Uh, and also we have, uh, relaunched, um, be that lawyer coaches corner as future rainmakers.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:20] So if you’re interested in my other podcast getting more direct feedback and and coaching and training from me, uh, feel free to check that I am gonna bring on and have brought on. Uh, some of my clients to just talk about their experiences and, and just kind of share the value that, uh, we had working together as a team.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:37] Um, and by the way, bears won guys over the weekend. You guys see that? Green Bay Bears Game?

Robert Armstrong: [00:00:41] Great game.

Steve: [00:00:42] Great game. They are the comeback guys. I’ll tell you. I love that. Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:00:46] I, I only heard about it. I was at a basketball game.

Steve: [00:00:49] Okay.

Sandy Fisch: [00:00:50] And when I walked in, they had a big screen and the packers were way up.

Sandy Fisch: [00:00:55] Yeah. And then at halftime, someone told me. You won’t believe what happened in the fourth quarter,

Steve: [00:01:00] but it seems like that’s been their story kind of most of the season. And I’m, I’m not a huge like American sports fan, but this one I had some family over and we watched and I actually stayed up past nine 30, which was amazing.

Steve: [00:01:12] Uh, I didn’t realize there was life after nine 30.

Robert Armstrong: [00:01:15] I know. And, and I’m on the East coast, which is even worse.

Steve: [00:01:17] Right, right. Yeah. Okay. Uh, well welcome gentlemen. So happy that you’re here. Um, we’ll get your introductions in a moment, but let’s start off with a fantastic Michael Gerber quote. Most small businesses are started by a technician who had an entrepreneurial seizure.

Steve: [00:01:32] Welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about that quote. I dunno. If you wanna go first, Sandy.

Sandy Fisch: [00:01:36] Oh, sure. Um, you know, one of the reasons we love that quote is you hear it and until you hear it, you never think of things like that. Then once you hear it, you’re like, oh, it’s so obvious. And when you look at it and you look around at businesses, it’s everywhere.

Steve: [00:01:55] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:01:55] And we of course look at law firms and we know, okay, well law firms. It’s technicians, people who know how to do the work of the business, and that’s how most sole practitioners start. They know how to do the work, but they never think about the other skillset, which is how to run a business.

Robert Armstrong: [00:02:13] Yeah. Robert. And they’re completely different skills. So as Sandy mentioned, Michael Gerber said that, um, the E-Myth is really the mistaken belief that people who are good at the technical aspect of a business are good at running that business. Completely different skill sets are needed. So we find that with lawyers, but it’s rampant throughout the economy. People who are really good at something think that that’s gonna translate into being. A business owner. Yeah. And unless they’ve got the systems to support it, it’s not gonna work.

Steve: [00:02:48] And it’s possible that a lawyer may have uttered the words, uh, they never taught me this, this in law school. Right. That’s also, I think that’s been said a few times. So it has, you put ’em all together and you’re like, okay, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s something amiss here. But, um, you know, the landscaper who, who’s great at landscaping and has no idea how to, to build, and that may have been the actual example that he used in the E myth, I think. Um, but by the way, I deal with landscapers on a. Occasional basis. They’re the worst. They’re the worst. Um, they have no idea how to run a business and it’s crazy ’cause it’s just like there’s so much money there. Anyway, I digress. Um, gentlemen, so happy that you’re here, everybody. We’ve got Robert Armstrong and Sandy Fish. Um, they are the founders and leaders of American Academy of Estate Planning Attorney Attorneys.

Steve: [00:03:33] And, um, just welcome to the show guys. Do you wanna take a moment and we’ll start off with Robert, just to share a little bit about, uh, your background, how you two came to be and in this business.

Robert Armstrong: [00:03:42] Sure. Um, I’ve been practicing law. Next year will be 50 years. I, I can’t even believe that I’ve been practicing for 50 years. Amazing. Um, Sandy and I met in the, I think the late eighties, and we’ve been partners for, you know, well over 30 years, um, which is a rarity in the legal world, nonetheless, in any kind of business to have a partner that long.

Steve: [00:04:04] Yeah.

Robert Armstrong: [00:04:05] Um, and so we got the, we had a practice where we had 12, 13 offices throughout California, Arizona. And, um, we had to make a decision at one point, do we wanna open up more offices, maybe make it into a national law firm, or do we want to do something different? And Sandy, I’ll let you finish off with what we decided to do.

Sandy Fisch: [00:04:25] Yeah, it was, uh, an interesting lunch that day ’cause we remember it well where we had that discussion and we said, you know, we knew other attorneys around the country and they knew about us and our practice. And we decided that instead of. Creating a national law firm, would there be attorneys who would be interested in hearing how we built our firm and the number of offices that we had at that time? And so we made that decision, let’s do that. And we’ll start by sending out some marketing material to attorneys and asking them to come to Las Vegas.

Sandy Fisch: [00:05:02] Um, we picked Las Vegas on purpose. It’s easy to get to. And some sense it suspends reality for people. And we wanted them to be open to the idea that for the first time they were gonna hear about how to approach the practice of law as a business. And of course, that was based upon the fact that when we first were given the E-Myth book by Michael Gerber, by a friend of ours. That we immediately devoured the book. And then we took everything, all the advice in the book, and we applied it to our law firm. And so here it was about five years after that occurred that we said, okay, let’s see if we can spread this message. And that was the beginning of the American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys.

Steve: [00:05:51] Yeah. And, and give us a little more on what exactly the, the, uh, the, the Academy does.

Sandy Fisch: [00:05:59] Well,

Robert Armstrong: [00:05:59] well, the,

Sandy Fisch: [00:06:00] oh, go ahead, Robert.

Robert Armstrong: [00:06:00] Yeah. The Academy is, uh, the complete solution, the way we call it for an estate planning law firm. Um, it gives them systems. We have 11 essential systems that, um, run the law firm and create the business that Michael Gerber warned about. So we had these systems, and I think the great innovation that Sandy and I created in 1993 when we launched the academy. Was the fact that everyone was talking about systems. Oh, you should have systems. You can’t run a business without systems. But we, we all know that these busy attorneys are never going to take the time to create these systems. It’s just too much.

Steve: [00:06:39] Yeah.

Robert Armstrong: [00:06:39] So we had ready made systems for an estate planning law firm, so it was a complete niche. Pitch.

Steve: [00:06:46] Yeah.

Robert Armstrong: [00:06:46] And, um, and, and that’s what the academy has done. Not only do we provide the systems, we teach them the law, and we also coach them through, you know, employing and deploying the systems in their firm.

Steve: [00:06:59] Hey everybody. Do you ever wonder why top executives and athletes are so successful? It’s typically because they have a coach, someone that is looking at them from the outside to identify their gaps, identify their potential. That’s what I do. I’m Steve Fretzin. And I’m

Robert Armstrong: [00:07:12] here to help you be that lawyer. If you’re interested in a free consultation, click the link below and we’ll get together and we’ll identify where you can make improvements to be that lawyer.

Steve: [00:07:21] Yeah. Have you guys had conversations about, all right, can this apply to personal injury? Can this apply to divorce and other areas, or have you just committed to like working with one segment and focusing?

Sandy Fisch: [00:07:31] Yeah. It’s interesting you should mention that because sometime after we launched the academy. We were approached by a number of different people and organizations to create academies in other areas, and we in fact, attempted to do that. We never went out to the public, but we had worked behind the scenes. Behind the scenes. We had actually hired an employment lawyer because we thought that the American Academy of Employment Law Attorneys. Was ready for this. The reality is there many different areas of the law are ready for this. So we put some time, effort, and money into the American Academy of Employment Law Attorneys. Uh, we had someone who knew that area of the law, had systems. We worked on it for probably one to two years, and then we realized. We have a decision to make. We can focus on the American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys, or we can dilute our attention to try and roll this out to other areas. We made the decision. We’re gonna stick to this area, and we’re glad that we did that.

Steve: [00:08:42] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wanna applaud you guys because a, you tried something, right? You saw that there was an application where you could, you could move it over and, and, and impact another group, but then, you know, sort of more level heads prevailed where you realized, you know, that’s taking away from. The amazing success and progress that you have on the main business. And I’ve been there too. I started a recruiting business. I started an executive coaching business and I was running, I think four companies at one time. And, and yes, exactly, it deluded what my true passion was and what my true skillset was. So I think between the focus and the systems, there’s a whole, you know, that’s probably five shows we could do just in those two. Yeah, right. Those two points.

Sandy Fisch: [00:09:23] Yeah, absolutely.

Steve: [00:09:24] But really, really great stuff. So you guys have seen, yeah,

Sandy Fisch: [00:09:26] sorry. You know, there was one other thing I wanted to mention that

Steve: [00:09:28] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:09:29] Was one of those things like the, the quote at the beginning from Gerber, and again, this is attributed to Gerber and we see it mentioned so many other places. By other experts where he talked about there’s a difference between working on the business and working in the business. And in the business is the, doing the work of that business, whether it’s the, the lawn care, it’s taking care of the lawns. If, if it’s estate planning attorney, it’s doing the legal work, but then there’s the other bus, the other. Thing that you have to do is work on the business. That means stepping outside of the business and starting to look at it as a business.

Steve: [00:10:09] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:10:10] That concept really struck us because we realized you have to allocate time for both of those things. And unfortunately, most attorneys one, never hear the concept. That’s why I wanted to make sure they got to hear it today, and they never make time because they’re so busy.

Steve: [00:10:25] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:10:26] Doing the work of the business itself. So I just wanted to mention that as well.

Steve: [00:10:30] Yeah. Well you guys are preaching to the choir between, you know, offering systems and recognizing that, you know, for example, business development and personal branding, which are part of what you guys do. But that’s my full focus and it again, is not something taught in law school, and it’s not something that lawyers who are busy leave or think they have the time for yet we know ultimately that’s what determines the success. Of a law practice or a lawyer is having their own clients and having that autonomy and that control. And so we’re all in this to try to help them focus and understand that it’s more than just being a great lawyer. That’s sort of table stakes, right? Yeah. A good, you know, maybe responsiveness. Like those are, like the, that’s where things are, are flatlined out and that it’s what do you need to do beyond that?

Steve: [00:11:12] So I would love to go back and, and ask you guys in all that you’ve seen. The last even 20, 30, 40 years about how successful law firms are managed fundamentally and how that’s changed and what’s sort of stayed the same. Sandy, you wanna take us there to start us off?

Sandy Fisch: [00:11:29] Sure. Um, you know, the thing that’s has stayed the same, and again, you’re gonna hear us talk about Gerber ’cause we’re so steeped in it for so many years and have lived it and taught it and worked with Michael that. Businesses all need the five basic systems of lead generation, lead conversion, fulfilling the work management of the operation, and then financial management.

Steve: [00:11:54] Yeah,

Sandy Fisch: [00:11:55] that remains the same. Now, how each of those things is accomplished has changed dramatically. You know, since we’ve been doing this, since you think back to 1993, there was no internet back then. There was no internet. So just the fact of how people used to answer the phone, how they got messages all the way through to, to the marketing itself on the lead generation. And we could go through specifics. Things have changed and they’re gonna continue to change. So that’s one of the things that has stayed the same. Um, and then on the change side, the thing that we’ve seen change dramatically, other than the things that I’ve mentioned, is that the hourly billing. In the industry. I mean, it’s basically, it’s dead. Some may lots are still doing it, but it’s dead. It’s over. It’s just a matter of time, particularly with the most, you know, recent innovation of, of artificial intelligence.

Steve: [00:12:57] Yeah. Well it’s, it’s scary stuff too, because, you know, whether it’s big law or just, just people that are so. Um, you know, completely absorbed in the billable hour. Like, that’s their life. That’s how everything runs. And to say it’s over. You know, I mean, there’s other things that, and if we go back, right, there’s other things like legal tech, oh, well now you know, the billable hour’s over, or, you know, there’s just been so many times where it’s been over and it hasn’t been, I agree that this is the big one, you know, this is like, you know, the one that’s gonna take it really there. But I think there are probably some skeptics out there. Robert.

Robert Armstrong: [00:13:33] Yeah, there sure are. And, and I think that the billable hour is almost essential in a big law firm that has nothing to do but sell Its time.

Steve: [00:13:41] Yeah.

Robert Armstrong: [00:13:41] And that’s the inventory they’ve got as time, so they’ve gotta account for it. In our area, when we talk with, with lawyers, we said, would you like to sit down with somebody and say, I’m not sure how much this is gonna cost. Give me a retainer upfront and I’ll bill you on a monthly basis. Well, that strikes fear into everyone. You know, it’s a little like writing a blank check to someone. So when you really focus on, we’re outcome oriented, we’ve done this many, many times, and so we know how much it costs, and this is your total fee that you’ll pay. Now let’s get to work. I mean, to, to see the relief on clients’ faces when they know that they’re not gonna be nicked and dimmed for every single, uh, meeting with the attorney. It really works.

Steve: [00:14:26] Yeah, if you’re a rainmaker and you’re feeling like you’re on an island, you don’t have anyone to share your ideas with, solve problems

Sandy Fisch: [00:14:32] with, you’re gonna wanna check out my rainmaker round tables, click the link below and learn more.

Steve: [00:14:37] Well, and so there’s some things that happen quickly. I’ve noticed in being in legal for 18 years, not as long as you two gentlemen, but things tend to move pretty slowly, right? I mean, think about business development, right? There are still, I don’t know, I’ll make up a number and say 80% of lawyers are still. Sort of not really leaning into it or social media. I mean, LinkedIn has come a long way and I’ve been teaching it for 20 years. It’s finally where everyone’s there. Now, what percentage of the people that are there are actually active and posting and and building brand? That’s still a very small percent. So that all being said, how, how should lawyers be thinking about the future and, and, and this train that, that now is actually, you know, maybe a high speed rail.

Robert Armstrong: [00:15:20] Well, let’s talk about marketing. ’cause you, you mentioned that marketing is a big deal at the academy and we have five channels of marketing and we want all of our members to use all five channels to bring in clients. There’s public outreach, there’s client referrals, there’s center of influence referrals, and then there, as you mentioned, the internet, which is, you know, change things drastically. And then there’s one more that we always recommend and say. Don’t lose sight of the fact that you can buy a law practice. And there’s, you know, the demographics of lawyers is really quite depressing. They’re, they’re very old and most of them have no idea of what a succession looks like. They’re gonna, you know. Do a face plant into the birthday cake at some point we talked with them about going to these, these other lawyers who are ready to retire. They don’t even think they’ve got anything of value to sell. And so we’ve had many members buy practices, integrate it into an academy run practice, and had had great success.

Steve: [00:16:23] Well, do they have something to sell? I mean, I, I know you guys are big system people, and I, I’ve heard from a number of people and sort of have bought into this, that, uh, a law practice without systems, without people, without clients, without like having a good internal structure. And it’s all about the, the, the person running it at the top. That’s the only person that does anything and has the relationships. That’s a much more cha And maybe it’s just that, that’s a more challenging practice to sell or get any kind of real money for.

Robert Armstrong: [00:16:51] Yeah. Well, well, that’s true. Um. But one of the innovations that, uh, I just wanna mention this, one of the innovations that we did recently, 2024, is we created this second company called American Academy Wealth. And we got a new book coming out called the Enterprise Model Law Firm. And um, and what we’ve done there is really added something to the regular, um, offerings of the, of the law firm. And we’ve integrated financial services. Or anything else that I, you know, real estate work, whatever it is, ancillary businesses. And so it really changes the, the, the outlook of the firm because now we’ve got something called recurring revenue that happens. And it’s the death now of most attorneys that every single month they have to start over, start at zero. Yeah. Bring in more clients. So, um, we, we think that. Combining the legal services within this case, wealth management, once you’re properly licensed and trained, it’s gonna change the whole future of estate planning law.

Steve: [00:17:53] Yeah. Awesome. Sandy,

Sandy Fisch: [00:17:54] you know, I, I wanted to go back to where, uh, a couple of things that you said. One was how slow the legal industry is to adopting anything new. And we know that firsthand because we’ve been working with lawyers for so many decades now. And we have had to pull them into the future and go back to the internet and pulling them into that and saying, no, this is something that you’ve got to engage in. We’ll help you.

Steve: [00:18:23] Yeah. I

Sandy Fisch: [00:18:23] don’t need a website.

Steve: [00:18:24] What’s that?

Sandy Fisch: [00:18:25] Yeah, all that. I don’t need that. People aren’t looking. No, that’s not how the, that’s not how the legal, I got the big, I got the big

Steve: [00:18:32] yellow pages ad that’ll last forever.

Sandy Fisch: [00:18:34] Exactly. You got it. So. We’ve become experts at dealing with groups and having them move into the next thing that they don’t know they need, but they actually need, uh, it’s essential that they have. So that was one thing. Then going back to the idea of the law firm before we even introduced the whole concept of the, um, wealth management, just the basic law firm. Most attorneys out there think, I have nothing to sell. That’s kind of good news and bad news. It’s bad news for them. It’s good news for our members because we say approach those people and yes, they do have something to sell. And the fact is that our members are willing to pay something for that. And we’ve had numerous transactions over the years where people were like, well, gee, I, I, I didn’t even know I had anything to sell. And now. We have someone who’s willing to pay them money for it. Yeah. So it’s a bonus for them and it can turn into a win-win. And now I think attorneys are more savvy, even sole practitioners knowing, well, no, I think I can sell my business. Um, so anyway, I just wanted to point that out because there is a market there and, um, we know how to work with attorneys to help them add to their existing practices quickly. And that is one way, as Robert mentioned.

Steve: [00:19:59] I think my, you know, the late great Larry, the lawyer, um, I’ve mentioned this on the show that he did a terrible job with, he did, had no succession plans. So he, you know, six months before 65 when he decided, oh, maybe I’ll bring in a couple of knuckleheads to, to just, you know. Take over these clients when they have a call just to make sure that there’s some coverage. So I don’t get the calls. He just did, he didn’t know what to do. He didn’t know how to do it. He had no plan and, and it was buried in six months after he brought in these, these guys. So, you know, I think that that just one thought is, you know, for the attorneys that are thinking about that’s a succession plan, that there’s a transfer of trust that for my dad didn’t occur, that needs to occur. And so you have to be, you know, working together for a period of time. Getting those clients, you know, transitioned and transferred over with that trust. And then there’s a lot more there than you may think, and that’s, that’s assuming you don’t have any systems or, or people or plans. But you know, if you do that even better, right?

Robert Armstrong: [00:20:54] Yeah, exactly. And, and what we, we always recommend is that there’s a period of time, it’s not like one day you write somebody a check and they disappear. You want to ease them into it.

Sandy Fisch: [00:21:04] Yeah.

Robert Armstrong: [00:21:04] So, um, it’s a, it’s a really interesting sort of proposition,

Sandy Fisch: [00:21:08] you know, the, and to just to stay on that topic. I mean, I have a meeting, I had a meeting last week and I had a meeting coming up, actually it’s tomorrow, with one of our members who has entered into the, the conversation with a law firm in their geographic area, and they’re going to buy the firm and we’ll guide them through every step of that. In addition to which we have a very specific system of what they’re supposed to do on the introduction from the selling attorney to the buying firm. And on how to work with the clients to introduce that to the clients. So there is that smooth transition, and as you already mentioned, the transition of the trust from the existing owner to the new owners. And so everything that we do, there’s a system for it. Again, I think of Michael Gerber. It’s in his book where he says, if there’s anything that you do in your business more than one time, you need to have a system for it. Of course he goes into the example of McDonald’s and he’s quite humorous in how he describes all of that.

Steve: [00:22:16] So how are you two staying in front of what’s coming? Because there’s, there’s a major wave as we’ve discussed that’s coming this way and it’s gonna hurt a lot of lawyers. I mean, if the billable hours gonna die and if, if, you know, big law has to reduce their staff by 30% or what I mean, if a, it’s gonna flood the market with. You know, small firms and partnerships and, and solos and everything else. Maybe a lot of the lawyers are gonna go into, into some other job. I don’t know. But how are you guys preparing yourselves and your, your, I mean, you guys have how many, how many members now around the country?

Sandy Fisch: [00:22:52] We have about 150 law firms around the country that are members of the academy.

Steve: [00:22:56] So how are you, like, how are you speaking to them about this and, and preparing them for what’s coming?

Robert Armstrong: [00:23:01] Well, we’re immersed in it ourselves. We are just really interested in the power of of ai. And you know, they say that AI’s easiest targets are those businesses that run on rules. And there’s no rulemaking business greater than being a lawyer. So they come in and they said, oh, these are the rules. Well, we can automate all of this and it’s going to happen. There’s no doubt there’s gonna be casualties. But we think that an attorney who really harnesses AI in the firm is gonna be able to, to solve that problem. And so we have, um, we have courses that we teach in ai. And we have another group inside the academy called the Peak Performer Program, where we’re gonna have a massive amount of education on AI with the actual things that you can do right now. ’cause if you’re not fooling around with AI in your personal life right now, it’s gonna be a steam roller when it, when it really gets up and going.

Steve: [00:23:59] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:24:00] Yeah. Let me add to that, that one of the things that AI will not be replacing is the human interaction and the connection. That people do want to have, and we’ve seen that in, you know, over the years.

Robert Armstrong: [00:24:14] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:24:14] So one of the things that we’re doing to stay ahead of that is making sure that our members are doing that. We give them the programs to have the interaction as well as their communication skills. Communication skills have to be top notch, and so we’re focusing on that as well. The other thing is that by creating American Academy Wealth adding services. We know clients want and need, and continuing to become the one phone call. That’s how our members are going to stay ahead of the, whatever the fallout is from ai. They’re gonna stay ahead of that because the one phone call idea. The ability to provide value and be fairly compensated for that. You know, we’re confident that it’s going to put our members in a position that is cons completely different than many others, unfortunately.

Steve: [00:25:12] Yeah, and I’m, I’m on board. I, I, I think, you know, it’s gonna save people a lot of time. I mean, I’m in the process of trying to work through. You know, automating my email inbox, right? Like there are lawyers that have 2, 3, 500 emails a day, and if they could get out of that inbox because there’s some automation tool that’s helping them organize and orchestrate, you know, responses and they just can review ’em and click send or have someone else do it, whatever. I mean, that’s, that’s, you know, a lot of hours that they can get back. And I just think, I just think that it’s gonna be difficult for, for many of the attorneys to come up with. Is it a flat fee system that they can move to? Is it going to be a subscription? Is it going to be, um, you know, alternative, you know, fee arrangements and how they, you know, maybe work off the backend of the result or something like that. So you guys, obviously estate planning’s unique in, in many ways, in the sense that a lot of it can be flat fee, but then you also have areas that, that, that can’t be. So I get the interaction piece that, that, that we want to talk with a human ultimately and trust somebody’s gonna take care of us. But then, um, how are lawyers and, and this we’ll kind of wrap up on this. I mean, how are, how are lawyers gonna make money when things that take a hundred hours take an hour? And is it just that they have to bring in that much more business?

Robert Armstrong: [00:26:26] Go ahead, Sandy.

Sandy Fisch: [00:26:27] Yeah. What what’s interesting about that is from the very beginning of the academy, we always were value billing. We were always flat fee. So this is going back to when we started in 1993.

Steve: [00:26:41] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:26:41] So we were way ahead of the curve then, and we continue to stay on that, um, on that path. We’ve never deviated. Now we always, what’s interesting about the academies, we say, here’s what we believe, and then we’re able to prove it through actual practice. Every attorney’s gonna make their own decision. Do they wanna follow our lead or not? And most follow our lead members. Follow our lead. Occasionally someone will, you know, attorneys are ones who like to do things their way. We know that

Steve: [00:27:15] people, attorneys are people too.

Sandy Fisch: [00:27:17] Yes, exactly. And so if they choose and wanna do hourly billing. It fine. They make the choice.

Steve: [00:27:25] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:27:26] But we’re very clear about that. And going into the future, it’s always comes down to, to value is it there? And we believe in delivering more value than what we charge.

Steve: [00:27:35] Well, and, and ethically, they may not be able to. They might be, you know, uh, hands tied based on, on some of the, the, you know, the regulations, Robert.

Robert Armstrong: [00:27:45] That, that’s true. From the very beginning of the academy, we had one mantra, and that’s, we’re in the relationship business. So whatever changes on the outside, this one, you know, core value of it being in the relationship business. So if AI really speeds things up, then that gives you more time to be developing a deeper relationship with the clients. So that’s what we, we feel is gonna happen.

Steve: [00:28:12] All right, fantastic. Gentlemen. All right. It’s time for Sandy and Robert’s. Big mistake. Who wants to, who wants to, to play ball?

Robert Armstrong: [00:28:20] Well, I’ll go first. Um. We made lots of mistakes. I mean, my God, they, you could catalog them. Um, but one that I think was really interesting, we created the academy in the beginning, um, to have territories, you know, exclusive territories so that other members would not feel like they couldn’t share with somebody else. Because they were gonna steal their stuff in their territory.

Steve: [00:28:43] Mm-hmm.

Robert Armstrong: [00:28:43] And then we thought, oh my God, this territory business, this has kept the academy really small. We can’t have thousands of members if we’ve got these territories. And then something remarkable happened once we got going, we saw that having the territories exclusive the way they were, created a cohesiveness in the academy where people who are members, they’re best friends with other people in the academy. I mean, it, it is just remarkable to see, and that’s based upon having these territories in the beginning that we thought might be a big mistake.

Steve: [00:29:17] Yeah, Sandy.

Sandy Fisch: [00:29:19] Yeah, I mean, well, you know, we’ll stay with that one because it was really, as Robert said, it was remarkable to see how members, they were looking for a place that in essence, they could call home, and that they could completely feel comfortable, share what’s working, share what’s not working. And trust, not just us as an organization, but trust the other members. Yeah. And it’s become this incredible, tight-knit group that one of the interesting things is that as a new member joins every academy member, if there’s a new member or someone thinking they wanna be a member, we tell ’em, well just go to our member list and call anybody you want. Ask ’em about the academy.

Steve: [00:30:06] Yeah.

Sandy Fisch: [00:30:06] Everybody picks up that phone. They talk to the people because they know they were in that position one day. They didn’t know who the academy was. Yeah. So they talk to them and try and give their point of view, and it really is an amazing welcoming to a new organization by any member because of that one idea of I was in, I I, I was in that place. Nervous and worried, and, uh, they get to talk to anybody they want.

Steve: [00:30:37] Yeah. As you guys know, I’m a huge, you know, mastermind, peer advisory com, you know, proponent, so I’ve got, you know, the four groups and I, yeah, they’re working together. They’re referring each other. They’ve become great friends. They, they even do business development as accountability buddies. Like there’s so much synergy and lawyers I think that are. Siloed and feeling on an island and don’t know process and don’t know a lot of things that you guys are working on with your client, like they just don’t realize that this is sitting out there for them. And whether it’s with you guys or me or anyone, there’s a lot of different opportunities for them to to engage with other lawyers who have a common mindset. And so I’m really, uh, excited what you guys are doing. Um, before we wrap up, I wanna take a moment, thank our sponsors. Of course, my new podcast, future Rainmakers, everybody. Check that out on your Apple phone. Uh, if you love it, give it some kind review. Uh, also, um, of course law, her podcast Sonia, putting it out there for the women and for everybody in law and rankings io continue to do great work for the personal injury attorneys around the country who are looking for a higher level of service and quality. Uh, Sandy people wanna get in touch with you. They wanna learn more about. American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys, what is the best digits? How do they find you? And Robert?

Sandy Fisch: [00:31:48] I think the best way is go to our website, uh, aa epa.com. Pretty simple. It stands for American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys. Um, go there. There’s lots of information. There’s ways to get in touch. There’s ways to get more information about the academy, and that would be the number one way to do that.

Steve: [00:32:07] Yeah. Fantastic. Robert, anything to add?

Robert Armstrong: [00:32:10] No, I think that’s it.

Steve: [00:32:12] And you. Um, and so you guys also just, I just wanna mention this really quickly as we wrap up. You guys partnered with Gerber, right? For that first eth attorney book, right?

Robert Armstrong: [00:32:20] Yes. In fact, um, we, uh, talked with Michael on a number of occasions and he said, I’m thinking of doing some verticals with niches, and we want you to be the first, the first niche that we do. So we, we wrote with him the book called the, uh, the E-Myth Attorney, why most, uh, law firms don’t work and what to do about it, and it was a great success.

Steve: [00:32:40] So great, so great. Well thank you guys for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom. I mean, the attorneys listening I think are, are getting, um, a lot of insights into, you know, why process is important, why trust is important, what does the future look like away from the billable hour. And I’ve had like a run of, of great guests coming on the show really kind of beating up the billable hour with what’s coming up the pike. And hopefully lawyers are really getting serious about, you know, coming up with other strategies. ’cause it’s, it’s gonna get, it’s gonna get crazy out there. So, yeah. But thank you both for coming on the show.

Robert Armstrong: [00:33:10] Thank you,

Sandy Fisch: [00:33:10] Steve. Thank you, Steve. Great job.

Steve: [00:33:11] Yeah, thanks. Thank you. All right. And thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 and change, um, you know, look, take to heart what’s been said and, and let’s, let’s make some strategic decisions about how we collaborate with other attorneys. How we work with coaches and consultants and groups, and we start thinking strategically about, Hey, we don’t know everything. You’re a great lawyer, but you don’t know everything. Guess what? I’m a great coach. I don’t know anything. You know, if I wanna start smoking meat, guess what? I had to. Talk to people. I had to watch video, I had to do things to learn how to be, you know, to make some great ribs. Which by the way, I do so FYI. Alright everybody, take care. Uh, I was gonna go down a whole thing, a whole rabbit hole with ribs. I don’t think that’s a good idea. Uh, but thanks everybody for hanging out with us. Take care, be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.

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