Deirdre Nero: The Ceiling Every Solo Lawyer Hits

By Steve Fretzin on January 26, 2026

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Deirdre Nero discuss:

Action can precede clarity
Growth requires delegation, not endurance
Authenticity strengthens leadership and trust
Expertise must be valued to be sustainable

Key Takeaways:

Starting a firm without certainty can still create momentum and direction. Waiting for perfect readiness delays growth more than risk does.
Handling every task personally creates a hard ceiling on scale and sustainability. Hiring support is the necessary step to move beyond survival mode.
Hiding core aspects of identity fractures credibility and connection. Openness creates deeper trust, healing, and stronger professional relationships.
Giving away high-level knowledge undermines both business viability and professional worth. Confident pricing is essential for long-term independence and freedom.

“I think honestly that was probably the biggest crime I committed in my firm… trying to do it all myself.” — Deirdre Nero

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About Deirdre Nero: Deirdre D. Nero is the founder of NERO Immigration Law, which she established in 2009 after practicing for several years at large domestic and international law firms. She previously led the immigration practice of a major international firm’s Coral Gables office and has deep experience advising individuals and small to mid-sized companies.

Her practice focuses on business and family immigration, including employment-based immigrant and nonimmigrant visas, PERM labor certifications, and naturalization. Deirdre represents clients nationwide and around the world, working closely with them to execute immigration strategies before U.S. immigration agencies.

Fluent in Spanish and certified at the highest level by the Spanish government, Deirdre is a passionate advocate for immigration reform. She frequently lectures and writes on immigration topics and has lived, studied, and worked in Spain, where she completed legal internships and comparative law research.

Connect with Deirdre Nero:

Website: https://neroimmigration.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deirdrenero/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/neroimmigration

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00]Steve Fretzin:Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin and welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. Very excited that you’re with us. We are here twice a week, every week to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. You know, it’s 2026. Let’s build the book of our dreams. Let’s, let’s not, you know, shortcharge ourselves another year.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:22] There’s an opportunity. To learn and to get educated, and to start to execute on business development and marketing and business best practices that are gonna take you to the next level. It isn’t just about the billable hour, right? Folks, we gotta get together and we gotta start thinking about the business side.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:37] And not many people know this better than Deirdre. How are you?

Deirdre Nero: [00:00:40] Hi. I am great. How are you?

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:42] Good, good. We have a weird way that we met. So we met through a mutual friend, um, Chelsea Williams, who I think brought you to one of our round table groups.

Deirdre Nero: [00:00:51] Yep.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:51] And then just as it turns out, you’re also married to one of my clients.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:55] Uh, Eric who’s in my round table. Right. So it’s a small, small little world we live in.

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:00] That’s true. I finally nailed him down after 12 years of dating. We just got married this past year, so

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:06] yeah. That’s good stuff. Good stuff. Well, sometimes it’s hard to wrangle the bull, right? You gotta

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:10] Yeah, that’s right.

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:11] Bring him down over 12 years. Um,

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:14] I told him I was like a chiseling away with a po chisel and I finally cracked through.

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:31] It always seems impossible until it’s done. So welcome to the show, Deirdre, and, uh, tell us a little bit about why that is your quote of the show.

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:48] So, um, it’s funny, I know it’s a Nestle Mandela quote, but I always think of it. In terms of Jason Ra, just ’cause he’s my favorite. He’s awesome.

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:56] I love

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:56] Jason Ra. I know he’s amazing. I’ve seen him in concert a billion times and I’m waiting for the day that he recognizes me.

Steve Fretzin: [00:02:03] There you go.

Deirdre Nero: [00:02:17] Turned this thing that seemed insurmountable into something that either was a positive or, you know, a growth experience or learning experience, or turned out to be something awesome, you know, so, yep. That’s kind of my relationship. If you

Steve Fretzin: [00:02:44] No. Um, so, you know, things that do seem impossible can come true. And, and I love that. Um, and so, um, everybody, we’ve got Deirdre near Niro here. Um, she’s the managing partner and founder of Niro Immigration Law. And give us a little background on how you came to be and, and the things you’ve overcome.

Deirdre Nero: [00:03:02] Yeah, absolutely.

Deirdre Nero: [00:03:03] Um, so I started this firm in 2009. Not the best time to, to start a firm. Um, you know, it was bad economic times and beyond that, I was going through a lot of personal challenges. I was, um, actually going through a divorce. Um. Which was brutal. And I had just started a new job at a lar at a large law firm, um, which is like one of the biggest immigration firms in the world, and I was working for them.

Deirdre Nero: [00:03:37] And two weeks into that new job, which was like very stressful on its own, my ex-husband decided that he was gonna. Piece out on our marriage, and I had no idea that that was coming. So that was really bad timing for me. And, uh, at the same time, and probably related stress wise, um, I lost all my hair to an autoimmune disease called alopecia areata, which I already had, but I had it in a very, like mild.

Deirdre Nero: [00:04:05] Form and then it just went and I just went bald and, you know, it was like a whole thing happening all at once. And, um, that was rough, you know? And so I decided in the moment to start my firm mostly as just like, I didn’t know what all, what the hell was to do with myself type of thing.

Steve Fretzin: [00:04:25] Mm-hmm.

Deirdre Nero: [00:04:25] Um, and I had all these clients and I was like, well, I better create some kind of structure that I can.

Deirdre Nero: [00:04:32] Service these clients, but I never really intended to have that be like a long term business. Um, and again, that was in 2009, so, um, obviously that it ended up becoming, you know, a, a larger thing than I thought it was gonna be. But in the moment. I really was just like, oh, I’ll just hang my shingle, um, till I find my next opportunity, till I get my personal life kind of in order until I, you know, get through this really rough moment that I was in in my life.

Deirdre Nero: [00:05:01] Probably the roughest moment I’ve, I’ve been through in my life. Um, and, you know, I ended up kind of like the quote, like I ended up just turning it into something else. And a lot of that actually. Not in the beginning, but a couple years in was actually Eric, uh, helping me because when we met in 2012, 2013, um, I was like.

Deirdre Nero: [00:05:29] I had been like a couple years doing it and I was kind of like, oh, I don’t know if I’m cut out to do this. You know? So I was kind of entertaining getting back into a firm or even going like in-house at a company or doing something else. Yeah. That I didn’t have to run my own firm anymore ’cause I was really struggling and he was like, no man, like don’t give up.

Deirdre Nero: [00:05:50] Like I’ll help you or do it together because That’s right. Good guy. When he started his firm. Um, so he really helped me kind of stay the course and. You know, grow and learn from him and his business skills and everything. So, um,

Steve Fretzin: [00:06:03] well, maybe, maybe that’s a good transition point to like, you know, what did you guys talk about and work on and like, what were the things that were missing that Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: [00:06:11] You recognized as gaps that you needed to sort of figure out? I

Deirdre Nero: [00:06:15] mean, one of the first things he helped me understand was like to, I needed to hire people that I couldn’t do like everything on my own. ’cause at that point I was like doing everything. And immigration. For those of you that. You don’t know a little bit about the practice area, especially the side of the practice that I focus on, which is business and family based.

Deirdre Nero: [00:06:35] Immigration is very like paperwork intense.

Steve Fretzin: [00:06:39] Yes.

Deirdre Nero: [00:06:40] Right? Yes. And so I was doing everything from finding the clients to, you know, putting together the cases and doing the consultations to doing marketing. Like licking the stamps and making the photocopies and you know, you know, doing all of it. And it was brutal.

Deirdre Nero: [00:06:55] And he was like, what are you doing? But that’s,

Steve Fretzin: [00:06:59] I mean, it’s kind of like every lawyer that goes out on their own, I think makes that mistake. And it’s like, you know, if they could just hear you say this now before they go out on their own, or if they’re six months in, like

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:10] beginning. Okay. But I was

**Steve Fretz

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Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin and welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. Very excited that you’re with us. We are here twice a week, every week to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. You know, it’s 2026. Let’s build the book of our dreams. Let’s, let’s not, you know, shortcharge ourselves another year. There’s an opportunity. To learn and to get educated, and to start to execute on business development and marketing and business best practices that are gonna take you to the next level. It isn’t just about the billable hour, right? Folks, we gotta get together and we gotta start thinking about the business side. And not many people know this better than Deirdre. How are you?

Deirdre Nero: [00:00:40] Hi. I am great. How are you?

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:42] Good, good. We have a weird way that we met. So we met through a mutual friend, um, Chelsea Williams, who I think brought you to one of our round table groups.

Deirdre Nero: [00:00:51] Yep.

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:51] And then just as it turns out, you’re also married to one of my clients. Uh, Eric who’s in my round table. Right. So it’s a small, small little world we live in.

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:00] That’s true. I finally nailed him down after 12 years of dating. We just got married this past year, so

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:06] yeah. That’s good stuff. Good stuff. Well, sometimes it’s hard to wrangle the bull, right? You gotta

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:10] Yeah, that’s right.

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:11] Bring him down over 12 years. Um,

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:14] I told him I was like a chiseling away with a po chisel and I finally cracked through.

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:20] That’s it. That’s it. All right. Well, he’s a tough nut, so I get it. Um, well, welcome to the show and let’s, let’s start off with our, our quote of the show. It’s Nelson Mandela. You provided this, it always seems impossible until it’s done. It always seems impossible until it’s done. So welcome to the show, Deirdre, and, uh, tell us a little bit about why that is your quote of the show.

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:38] Oh my gosh, there’s so many reasons. But I mean, the short reason, well, number one, it’s Nestle Mandela, but also, um, my favorite musician, Jason Mraz uses it in one of his songs. So, um, it’s funny, I know it’s a Nestle Mandela quote, but I always think of it. In terms of Jason Ra, just ’cause he’s my favorite. He’s awesome.

Steve Fretzin: [00:01:56] I love

Deirdre Nero: [00:01:56] Jason Ra. I know he’s amazing. I’ve seen him in concert a billion times and I’m waiting for the day that he recognizes me.

Steve Fretzin: [00:02:03] There you go.

Deirdre Nero: [00:02:04] Um, but we’re, you know, I, for me that quote resonates a lot just because I’ve, I’ve faced a lot of crazy challenges and you know, I’ve always managed somehow to kind of. Turned this thing that seemed insurmountable into something that either was a positive or, you know, a growth experience or learning experience, or turned out to be something awesome, you know, so, yep. That’s kind of my relationship. If you

Steve Fretzin: [00:02:33] lined up Deirdre, if you lined up my junior high and high school teaching staff and asked them if they could predict that I would have any kind of successful career, you would’ve straight across the board. No. Um, so, you know, things that do seem impossible can come true. And, and I love that. Um, and so, um, everybody, we’ve got Deirdre near Niro here. Um, she’s the managing partner and founder of Niro Immigration Law. And give us a little background on how you came to be and, and the things you’ve overcome.

Deirdre Nero: [00:03:02] Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I started this firm in 2009. Not the best time to, to start a firm. Um, you know, it was bad economic times and beyond that, I was going through a lot of personal challenges. I was, um, actually going through a divorce. Um. Which was brutal. And I had just started a new job at a lar at a large law firm, um, which is like one of the biggest immigration firms in the world, and I was working for them. And two weeks into that new job, which was like very stressful on its own, my ex-husband decided that he was gonna. Piece out on our marriage, and I had no idea that that was coming. So that was really bad timing for me. And, uh, at the same time, and probably related stress wise, um, I lost all my hair to an autoimmune disease called alopecia areata, which I already had, but I had it in a very, like mild. Form and then it just went and I just went bald and, you know, it was like a whole thing happening all at once. And, um, that was rough, you know? And so I decided in the moment to start my firm mostly as just like, I didn’t know what all, what the hell was to do with myself type of thing.

Steve Fretzin: [00:04:25] Mm-hmm.

Deirdre Nero: [00:04:25] Um, and I had all these clients and I was like, well, I better create some kind of structure that I can. Service these clients, but I never really intended to have that be like a long term business. Um, and again, that was in 2009, so, um, obviously that it ended up becoming, you know, a, a larger thing than I thought it was gonna be. But in the moment. I really was just like, oh, I’ll just hang my shingle, um, till I find my next opportunity, till I get my personal life kind of in order until I, you know, get through this really rough moment that I was in in my life. Probably the roughest moment I’ve, I’ve been through in my life. Um, and, you know, I ended up kind of like the quote, like I ended up just turning it into something else. And a lot of that actually. Not in the beginning, but a couple years in was actually Eric, uh, helping me because when we met in 2012, 2013, um, I was like. I had been like a couple years doing it and I was kind of like, oh, I don’t know if I’m cut out to do this. You know? So I was kind of entertaining getting back into a firm or even going like in-house at a company or doing something else. Yeah. That I didn’t have to run my own firm anymore ’cause I was really struggling and he was like, no man, like don’t give up. Like I’ll help you or do it together because That’s right. Good guy. When he started his firm. Um, so he really helped me kind of stay the course and. You know, grow and learn from him and his business skills and everything. So, um,

Steve Fretzin: [00:06:03] well, maybe, maybe that’s a good transition point to like, you know, what did you guys talk about and work on and like, what were the things that were missing that Yeah. You recognized as gaps that you needed to sort of figure out? I

Steve Fretzin: [00:06:39] Yes.

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:10] beginning. Okay. But I was

Steve Fretzin: [00:07:11] okay, get a bookkeeper. Get a va, like

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:14] Yeah, exactly. Paralegal. And I was already a couple years in at that point, so like,

Steve Fretzin: [00:07:17] yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:18] I should have made that decision sooner.

Steve Fretzin: [00:07:20] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:20] But it took him kind of pushing me to, to do it and you know, now I look back and I’m like, oh my God.

Steve Fretzin: [00:07:27] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:27] Can’t imagine having to do all of that on my own again, like without any, um, team and stuff.

Steve Fretzin: [00:07:33] And Well, and the thing is too, it’s hard to build business. It’s hard to build brand. It’s hard to focus on the stuff that are the business sides of it when you’ve got your finger in every bowl trying to. Do every little task. Right, exactly. So you figure that out. And then, then did you then pivot once you got that sort of organized into, you know, how to build the business and how to grow?

Deirdre Nero: [00:07:54] Yeah, of course. And you know, I started focusing a lot more on marketing and sales. Um, you know, so that was very helpful. And we, you know, especially in the beginning, not so much anymore, a little bit. Now and then, but really in those days, it was very heavy that him and I would do a lot of networking and business development together. Mm. So that was fun. And, you know, it, it helped us with, um, just feeling comfortable in building relationships and anyone he would meet, he would introduce me to and vice versa. And so it really kind of like amplified, um, our exposure and our ability to just meet new people, find new referral partners.

Steve Fretzin: [00:08:31] Yeah,

Deirdre Nero: [00:08:31] and find new clients, you know, and all of that. So it was really. It was a fun time. Yeah. We used to kind of go to this one coffee shop that was by his old office and we would just be there like all day doing back to back, like networking meetings together. Yeah. It got to the point where I was like, no more coffee. They’re gonna have to like put me to straight chat as well.

Deirdre Nero: [00:08:54] That’s,

Steve Fretzin: [00:08:54] yeah, that’s a lot. That’s can be, that can be very taxing in a day. I mean, as much as

Deirdre Nero: [00:08:59] it was a lot. I mean, other

Steve Fretzin: [00:09:00] things can be,

Deirdre Nero: [00:09:00] we laugh about it now because we’re like, there’s no way we could do that now. But like in those, yeah, in those days that was, it was fun. And I

Steve Fretzin: [00:09:07] think it, I’m, I’m with you. I was, I was doing it. I was, I was, sorry. I was just gonna say, like you, I was popping around from networking and networking and 3, 4, 5, 6 in a day and like you come home and you’re just like. Your brain is because you gotta really be on, you can’t sleep through those.

Deirdre Nero: [00:09:23] I know. And I’m just like, I don’t wanna talk to anyone. I don’t wanna talk on the phone. Please don’t call me. ’cause I don’t wanna talk on the phone to anyone. Um, yeah, so I mean, it’s still a lot, I still do a lot of obviously that stuff. Yeah. But,

Steve Fretzin: [00:09:37] okay. And I know like one thing that we had talked about prior to airing this is, uh, just about authenticity. And we talk a lot about that on the show. And I don’t know that lawyers fully understand what it means. To build a practice being your authentic self. Can you kind of dive into that for a moment?

Deirdre Nero: [00:09:55] So for me, a lot of that has been, you know, because I did lose my hair [00:10:00] and I wear wigs. This is a wig. And like if you’ve known me for any amount of time, you’ve certainly seen me without my wig on, on many occasions. Um, and it’s all over the internet, so if you’re curious, you can, um, but. That was really complicated for me because in the beginning of losing my hair into this autoimmune disease and trying to navigate, you know, now I’m like creating this whole brand that’s like around me basically. And I don’t have these big firms and their, their brand to kind of fall back on, uh, or hide behind even. I had to kind of be the face name everything of the firm, and I was really suffering like a whole identity crisis of like what it means to. Not only lose like your husband and, and your job and have to be a business owner when you didn’t expect to be, but also like losing your whole like self image and femininity and everything that comes with our, you know, what hair means to everyone. Not just, but especially women. Not just women obviously. But, and it was really rough and I was hiding a lot, um, in the beginning and. Luckily for me, I, I found, um, the foundation that is the, the foundation for this disease, the National Alopecia Areata Foundation. And I started working with them and I started becoming an advocate for them. And through that I was able to see that, like I don’t. To hide it. Yeah. You don’t,

Steve Fretzin: [00:11:29] right. You don’t have to hide it,

Deirdre Nero: [00:11:30] you know? And

Steve Fretzin: [00:11:31] yeah,

Deirdre Nero: [00:11:31] and I can wear a headscarf. If I wanna wear a headscarf, I can wear my balls out, I can wear my hair, I can wear pink hair if I want to. Right. Like, I can just, it’s, it’s just me being my authentic self and advocating as like what I do, right? Like, so I’m an advocate for immigrants in my job, but I’m also an advocate for the alopecia patient community in my private life. I’m trying to kind of like. Meld those two together and instead of being like feeling like I was two people living one life, you know, trying to be just like one whole person that lived authentically and everyone kind of knew what my ideal was, you know, and it both in business and in personal, and a lot of that too jelled for me when I started doing fundraisers in my local community and thinking like, well, I gotta invite. All my business contacts, ’cause that’s the majority of the people that I know and that potentially I could raise funds off of and also raise awareness. And you know, I never did my fundraisers with my weight on because the whole point is, you know, yeah, to be advocating for this disease and you want. To show people what it is, you know, so that they can understand.

Steve Fretzin: [00:12:42] Hey everybody, do you ever wonder why top executives and athletes are so successful? It’s typically because they have a coach, someone that is looking at them from the outside to identify their gaps, identify their potential. That’s what I do. I’m Steve Fretzin and I’m here to help you be that lawyer. If you’re interested in a free consultation, click the link below and we’ll get together and we’ll identify where you can make improvements to be that lawyer.

Deirdre Nero: [00:13:04] So,

Steve Fretzin: [00:13:04] but, but it’s, but I think what you’re, but what you’re saying is that

Deirdre Nero: [00:13:07] pulling in all my worlds and melding them, you know?

Steve Fretzin: [00:13:09] Yeah. But that, and I think just, we don’t. No necessarily show our vulnerable sides, we don’t necessarily show. That’s really it. You know, the dings and the dents in our lives and the things that have actually sort of defined us. One of the things I love about this show and asking the question, which I’ll get to at the end, which is, you know, what’s, what’s X? You know, X, you know, whoever’s name. Big mistake is because it gives someone an opportunity, not like to open up their heart and everything, but like to kind of share. A challenge, a frustration, a a a person or, or whatever. But I, I think that we don’t do enough of that. But what ends up happening is it, it, it actually allows people to connect with us better because they realize, hey, you know, we’re all imperfect.

Deirdre Nero: [00:13:49] Oh, a hundred percent. And I definitely think that once I start it opening up to just my. Business network and just basically everyone. Um, and not just like my close friends and family about what was actually going on with me. Um, it really helped me be just more authentic overall, but also is like very healing, you know? Yeah. And people relate and trust you in a different way and are more willing. Two, like when you’re asking them then to give you money for your cause or whatever, you know, are much more willing when you’re, when you’re willing to kind of put it out there and be authentic and talk about things that maybe. Otherwise you wouldn’t really want people to know about, so,

Steve Fretzin: [00:14:35] right.

Deirdre Nero: [00:14:36] Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: [00:14:37] Um, you know, I put it pretty front and center on my LinkedIn that I survived a plane crash. I mean, that’s, that’s a different type of challenge in, in a life. Um, you know, from, part of it is, part of it is, again, sharing a part of myself that. You know, that’s unique. Um, something that was very challenging for me that I had to overcome being basically a human pretzel and recovering from and all of that. I also think it’s interesting. So I think there’s, you know, not everybody’s talking to plane crash survivors every day. So I think there’s, there’s things that, you know, whether we have, uh, overcome a disease, whether we’ve overcome an injury. I, I had someone on my show, you know, a month ago or so that, you know, got walked on it, walked off a curb and bang, got hit by a car and, and. You know, that was almost and there, so, but I think that’s an, it’s an important part of sort of like our persona and how we, how we leverage it in our personal, our business lives. I think most lawyers are, are scared to, to just be honest.

Deirdre Nero: [00:15:35] Yeah, I agree. And I think. I don’t mean to generalize, but I do think for women, especially in law, it’s even harder. Um, I think that women have, and maybe it’s ourselves causing this perception, you know, I mean, I’m not trying to say that it’s man’s fault or anything like that, but I think, you know, we perpetuate kind of these needs to be perfect and to look a certain way and to dress a certain way and, you know, and it’s hard when you’re, when you don’t fit inside of that. Box perfectly. And, um,

Steve Fretzin: [00:16:09] well that’s been a, that’s been a thing for years where like, guys get ready to go out in about three minutes and women take, you know, longer. Yeah. Because you feel the need and, and I get it. Like that’s, yeah. You know. But it’s, but um,

Deirdre Nero: [00:16:20] I’ll say one good thing about wearing a wig is that I get ready a lot faster.

Steve Fretzin: [00:16:23] Record time. You’re out the door in five minutes flat. Nice.

Deirdre Nero: [00:16:27] Yes. Okay. My hair usually is in my purse when I leave the, when I leave the house in the morning, it’s not even on my head. So, you know, it’s all good. It’s

Steve Fretzin: [00:16:36] good. So, so let me ask you this question, because there’s branding, there’s being authentic. Um, there’s also, you know, clearly an entrepreneurial side to. Your life and the, and the, the, the path that you took. A lot of the people listening to the show have either made the move to go off on their own or, or, or they’re in a small firm or big firm or whatever, anything between, and it’s always crossed their minds. I mean, I think this is a show specifically for motivated people. Yeah. It’s hard for motivated people not to at least think about what it would be like to be an entrepreneur. What’s, what’s it meant to you?

Deirdre Nero: [00:17:10] I mean, for me, I think freedom is the most important thing, right? Like just being able to be like the boss of my own life and you know, is. So like worth its weight in gold.

Steve Fretzin: [00:17:21] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:17:22] But it’s also the hard part, right? Is that when you’re the boss, you’re responsible for everything and in charge of everything, pros and cons across the board, do everything. And the brain never stops. And sometimes at night, my brain’s like, you know, and I can’t get it to stop. And it’s like, okay, you know, I gave up trying a while ago because I’m like, all right, I’m having one of these nights, but not gonna turn it off, you know? And so it’s, it’s obviously the good. Side of the coin and the bad side of the coin. And I had a couple of opportunities to join firms and, you know, I thought about it seriously a couple times because it is a lot of stress and pressure and it’s hard to do this for yourself, you know, and then especially once you have staff and you have an office and you have overhead and you have payroll and, you know, it’s, it’s a lot. Um, but

Steve Fretzin: [00:18:09] how

Deirdre Nero: [00:18:09] have you supported yourself? The bullet. I was like, I can’t do it.

Steve Fretzin: [00:18:13] But Deirdre, you mentioned earlier that. You were doing everything yourself. What, what, what’s been the end result of the epiphany that, you know, doing all the work and doing all the day to day and really getting in the weeds on everything? What, what have you done to resolve that? Like what does your team look like now?

Deirdre Nero: [00:18:28] Oh God. Thank God for my team. I don’t, I don’t. I don’t think I could go back to those days, honestly. Yeah. Well, first of all, you can’t really grow when you’re in that situation. It’s just impossible, right? You’re, there’s a definite ceiling to what you’re doing, right? And so for those of us that are highly motivated, right, we’re always kind of like, you know, once your head starts button up against that ceiling, you’re, you’re ready to start trying to break through. And like, I think the only way to really do that. In that first instance is to start hiring people that are gonna help take some of that load off your plate. Um, but for me, like specifically, I have again, immigration law, super paperwork heavy, super, like information gathering. You know, a lot of that stuff does not need to be done by a lawyer. Right? So the first thing that was like most important was building a, a good team of paralegals. You know, I started with one, now I have three. But that’s been key, right? Yeah. ’cause the paralegals are really helping me put together the actual like paperwork file, which is so time consuming. Yes. And requires so much back and forth with clients that like, I don’t even know how I was doing that myself, to be honest with you. Like, and so that’s number one. Number two, obviously having a good. Assistant and someone that’s gonna help you manage, you know, the administrative aspects of the firm so that you don’t have to be constantly worrying about confirming appointments and calendaring and, you know, just doing all of that. Taking the money, [00:20:00] you know, drafting the, the engagements, like just doing all the little things, making photocopies, flick, stamps, you know, all that shit.

Steve Fretzin: [00:20:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:20:08] Not like, which a lawyer shouldn’t be doing, you know? Right. So that was definitely like my first hire. Right. Then my assistant was so good at what she was doing that she became my paralegal and we hired an assistant to replace her.

Steve Fretzin: [00:20:22] Mm-hmm.

Deirdre Nero: [00:20:22] She is now been with me for over 10 years, um, is my senior paralegal. She’s amazing. Um, so, you know, and then kind of building in kind of a support team for her as a head paralegal. And then eventually I got to the point where I wanted to hire. Um, an associate actually had two for, for a moment there, but, uh, one of them left us, uh, last year. So I have one associate right now, which is nice. ’cause now I have someone else that can also do some of the attorney work. Um, and also some business development work. You know, I, that’s primarily my focus, but, um, he’s also doing that as well, which is awesome. And then I, uh, really actually at Eric’s urging. Started adding law clerks to my team and in the beginning I was like, this is. Like, what, what, what am I doing with these people? Like, I don’t know what to do with them. Right? Yeah. And he kind of was teaching me what he did with them, and now they’re like, indispensable. I’m like, if I don’t have any law clerks know on, on, on the schedule that day because they go with like their school schedule, so it’s not always. I’m like, where are my law clerks? ’cause I become so dependent on them to take notes during meetings and to follow up, you know, do follow ups with, um, potential clients and to do research assignments and, you know, helping the paralegals like, you know, and, and a lot of them are very, very smart and can, are capable of a lot more than. Then you think they are. Um, and once you see that, you know, even giving them real, you know, casework to do and it’s, it’s been great.

Steve Fretzin: [00:21:55] Is there, is there a secret that you could share of how you’ve been successful hiring? Because that. I know for people going out on their own that are doing too much, that that first paralegal, that first associate, that first va or or admin, makes a huge difference in their, in their life. And

Deirdre Nero: [00:22:15] they, I’m not gonna lie, I went through like two before I found the one that was

Steve Fretzin: [00:22:18] Okay. But, but that’s, there’s, there’s lessons to be learned through that, I’m sure.

Deirdre Nero: [00:22:22] Yeah, for sure. And, and you know, one guy was just. Murdering way too many trees like I was finding Fox of, and I’m like, we’re a dreamer. Like so much, so much waste, like I can’t even tell you about. And that was the least of his, his issues. But, uh, we still joke about, we still joke about that one. I got my team to be like, uh, using scrap as like draft papers. So we’re not, uh, immigration lawyers are notorious for. Using a lot of paper, so,

Steve Fretzin: [00:22:51] yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:22:51] Um, but I, I learned a trick from God. Where did I learn it? It was either one of the sales coaches, or it might have been in how to manage a small law firm, which I didn’t actually do the program, but Eric did it for a short stint, and I was kind of like his plus one at some of the, some of the things. So I don’t, can’t remember if I learned it from my sales coach or from, from them, but they were, they were giving us this. This was a while ago. Okay, so people were still using Craigslist, all right, to post jobs, which now I don’t think we do, but it was like creating this insanely long post with like these very specific tasks that they had to do, uh, to help like weed people out. Now looking back, I’m like, I dunno if I do that or not, but it really works. Wow. Like I found this amazing lady who has been with me now forever, and that’s how I found her. Um, and. It was, it was great. I mean, she, she ended up being the best thing that I think the best decision I ever made in my business was hiring her. So, um, yeah, I mean, that’s how I did it, but I think you just need to prepare. How about more recently, yourself, mentally?

Steve Fretzin: [00:24:02] What’s the little more recent?

Deirdre Nero: [00:24:03] Yeah. I think you need to prepare yourself mentally that interviewing is a pain in the ass. And it’s kind of like a long process, right? Yeah. And like not just to get frustrated and hire like the first person. That,

Steve Fretzin: [00:24:15] yeah,

Deirdre Nero: [00:24:16] you talk to and really try to find someone that is gonna be a good fit and that you might not be able to tell from the interview. So if you notice that, then in the beginning you need to probably try and cut them loose. Faster.

Steve Fretzin: [00:24:31] I, I like the idea of interviewing and then maybe having either someone else interview and then also

Deirdre Nero: [00:24:36] mm-hmm.

Steve Fretzin: [00:24:37] I’ve done that, having them complete a task. So I, like, I have, uh, my VAs in the Philippines, you know, shout out to you, Ian. And like I said, Hey man, before we go any further and I’ll pay you for this, you know, can you do like, you know, 10 hours of. You know, video editing. I wanna see like your video editing stuff.

Deirdre Nero: [00:24:53] Absolutely.

Steve Fretzin: [00:24:53] I love that idea. So he comes back instead of doing like, you know, 10 hours, he did a lot more than that and, and charged me for 10. Didn’t want more, but like, he wanted to really demonstrate to me like he can over perform. And then, and it was really to my liking and satisfaction, I was like, wow, this is great. And he just, you know, I think it’s like, you know, anytime you can get a chance to test somebody before you. You know, it’s like, you know, yeah. Can I get a sample?

Deirdre Nero: [00:25:16] And I happen. Another person, like especially if you have a trusted person on your team that can also do like a second interview or even do the interview with you. Um, I’ve done that plenty of times. Um, and I definitely think that that’s worthwhile. I do have a marketing person who’s offshore. She’s in Columbia. Um. That was a hire from from this past year and it was very similar where she kind of went like above and beyond and showed me like samples of what she could do and created this whole presentation for me and I was like very impressed. And at the end of the day, that’s really why I chose her above the other candidates because. She was demonstrating to me, you know, the work that, that she could do. And I, I hadn’t even asked her to do it. It was awesome.

Steve Fretzin: [00:26:03] And you mentioned a few minutes ago that you, and I think you told me this in our pre-interview that you had, that you’ve hired a sales coach. Obviously that’s what I’m doing for lawyers, is I don’t, we don’t call it sales ’cause that’s a scary, scary word. Yeah. So good for you that you can use it. But um,

Deirdre Nero: [00:26:16] we’re

Steve Fretzin: [00:26:16] all salespeople. It’s just, you know, lawyers, again, they’re, they’re, they’re not, uh, that nobody became a lawyer to go into sales. Right. That’s, that’s a known thing. And there’s a lot that goes into business development and branding and entrepreneurship and things like that. Yeah. What did you learn? Like, is there one takeaway from the, from the sales coach that you used that has really stayed with you and helped you to be successful throughout your

Deirdre Nero: [00:26:39] career? No, I don’t.

Steve Fretzin: [00:26:40] If you’re a rainmaker and you’re feeling like you’re on an island, you don’t have anyone to share your ideas with, solve problems with, you’re gonna want to check out my rainmaker round tables, click the link below and learn more,

Deirdre Nero: [00:26:50] use him anymore. Well, but um,

Steve Fretzin: [00:26:52] hopefully

Deirdre Nero: [00:26:52] you learned something. I saw probably, but I learned a lot. Um, and Eric and I both did. We, you know, we both used him at, at different stages of, of our, you know, past 10, 15 years. Um, I think. To not like undervalue what we’re doing, you know? Yeah. And people are always gonna try to get discounts, and especially when you’re working on flat fee, like we do a lot, um, you know, the tendency is to want to give a discount or to, they’re asking for a discount, you know, not to give into that, but instead, you know, make arguments. But, you know, in a kind of a. Friendly way about, you know, why you’re not gonna discount and why you shouldn’t discount, and why they don’t deserve a discount. I mean, you obviously don’t say it that way, but you know, and at the end of the day, like what we’re doing has a lot of value and we need to remember that. Yeah. And you know, my sales coach was the first person that was like, why aren’t you charging for your consultations? And I was like, because this and that. And he’s like, no. How many consultations and he did the math and he is like, you could have bought like three houses with the amount of three advice that you’ve given away. Like, what are you doing?

Steve Fretzin: [00:28:07] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:28:08] And I was like, that’s right. You know them. Why am I giving all these, you know, umpteen hours of free advice? Like, my knowledge is valuable. And when I give a consultation, I’m not just like being like, here’s what we can do at 1, 2, 3 x, y, z. Like, we’re really. Especially in immigration, everything is so specific to the person and the situation and the what’s going on in the world and the, and it, there’s so many moving parts, you know, and what we’re doing. It’s really valuable.

Steve Fretzin: [00:28:36] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:28:37] And so like, why aren’t we charging for that? You know? And, and so I started charging consultations. That was probably, you know. The best advice I ev I got from him. I love it. I mean, so many things to, to boil down. I mean, if you, you know, I highly, but

Steve Fretzin: [00:28:54] the, but the point is like having someone that is, oh my God, outside of your, uh, it’s so world I that can, that can help. And that’s, that’s, that’s why I, I’m not just saying this for myself, but you know, I’m friends with, you know, dozens of lawyer coaches

Deirdre Nero: [00:29:12] I used wasn’t even lawyers. Specific and I still

Steve Fretzin: [00:29:14] got like so much. Okay, that’s fine. And before I was, I wasn’t right. I mean, so, right. It’s like there are people that know things in areas that you don’t, you can’t read your label from inside the bottle as easily. Yeah. So find people that, that are, that are just gonna add value for you, but make sure, and this is maybe something like you knew this guy through Eric and whatever. I am, I know there’s a lot of good coaches and guess what? Just like in any industry, there’s a lot of bad coaches. Yeah. So I think you really need to make sure that you qualify the, the program, the coach, what they’re

Deirdre Nero: [00:29:44] teaching. Agree.

Steve Fretzin: [00:29:44] Talk to their clients, like do your homework before you just throw money down on. And anybody, whether that’s a lawyer or consultant, whatever.

Deirdre Nero: [00:29:53] But I think like we also as lawyers, um, especially those of us who’ve been practicing for a while, I’ve been practicing, um, [00:30:00] over 22 years now. So like I consider myself to be pretty experienced. Um. You know, and I feel like there becomes a point where, like I, I, I have nothing new to learn in that, on that topic, and that’s bullshit.

Steve Fretzin: [00:30:12] Yeah. Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:30:12] There’s always something new to learn. There’s

Steve Fretzin: [00:30:14] always something new. I’m learning all the time. I’m learning all the time. Right. I’m learning whether it’s, it’s new ideas that I want to execute on, whether it’s ai, whether it’s social media. Oh wow. It’s

Deirdre Nero: [00:30:24] never ending.

Steve Fretzin: [00:30:26] Chasm of things that we need to,

Deirdre Nero: [00:30:27] it’s a whole

Steve Fretzin: [00:30:27] new,

Deirdre Nero: [00:30:27] yeah, there’s a whole new world with AI there, even beyond that stuff, you know, I think that, um, just keeping your minds open that, that you don’t know everything.

Steve Fretzin: [00:30:37] Yep. Dear Drop. Speaking of, speaking of, of, of this and what we do at the end of every show, not only everything, but um, what’s your big mistake?

Deirdre Nero: [00:30:48] Just one. Do I have to pick?

Steve Fretzin: [00:31:11] Well, you mentioned one earlier about like doing everything yourself. That’s a big, big one. But

Deirdre Nero: [00:31:15] I think honestly that was probably the, that’s

Steve Fretzin: [00:31:18] probably it.

Deirdre Nero: [00:31:19] The biggest like crime I committed in my firm in the, in the first several years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And I think the second one, which is sim similar, was not hiring another lawyer sooner.

Steve Fretzin: [00:31:10] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:31:11] I really. I pushed that off as long as like, I had a whole paralegal team and admins and, but I kept procrastinating like an associate.

Steve Fretzin: [00:31:19] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:31:20] And I kept thinking, you know, I can’t afford it. I can’t this, I can’t that, how, how am I gonna have time to, you know, train them this and that? No, I mean, at, at some point you have to just go for it. Right. And if it doesn’t work, you cut your losses. But I mean, having another lawyer there is invaluable, right?

Deirdre Nero: [00:31:39] Yeah. And so that was kind of like the next step of. Of that process of trying not to do it all yourself. ’cause I was finding myself as recent as you know, this past year up all night. Checking cases. Right. Because I’m the only lawyer in the firm and so everything has to go under my red pen. Right. I’m

Steve Fretzin: [00:31:57] well, haven’t forbid you go on a vacation, right? And you’re like,

Deirdre Nero: [00:32:00] yeah,

Steve Fretzin: [00:32:00] you’re having to work through the vacation. Yeah,

Deirdre Nero: [00:32:02] exactly. And having someone else that can do consultations and someone else that can attend a client’s interview if I’m at town.

Steve Fretzin: [00:32:09] Yeah.

Deirdre Nero: [00:32:09] You know, that is, that’s really invaluable. And I push that off. Like, I mean, literally he just started the, the be it’s been, it’s, it’s about a year now that he’s been with me.

Deirdre Nero: [00:32:19] Nice. So, I mean, I’ve been doing this for a long time. My firm celebrates our 17th anniversary next week, next month.

Steve Fretzin: [00:32:27] I think they call that a 17 year overnight success.

Deirdre Nero: [00:32:30] Yeah. Hey,

Steve Fretzin: [00:32:32] we’re still

Deirdre Nero: [00:32:33] a work in progress. Don’t get me wrong.

Steve Fretzin: [00:32:35] Before we go any further, I want to take a moment. Thank our amazing sponsors, of course, LA her podcast, if you haven’t heard that, with Sonya Palmer, amazing podcast, helping women and, and, and taking them to the next level rankings io for, you know, for all your marketing needs.

Steve Fretzin: [00:32:49] And of course, future rainmakers. My other podcast is, uh, having a launch or launched a relaunched on, uh, January 19th. So check that out. And, um, also just wanna mention that if you are enjoying the show, please don’t be shy about leaving a kind review on Apple or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcast.

Steve Fretzin: [00:33:05] You know, it’s a little thing, but for me it helps not only me out to get the branding of the show built, but also it’s helping other lawyers find us and give them great content like Deirdre and everybody else that I have on here, uh, to help them be the lawyer. But. Um, the other piece of it is, um, you know, it’s helping us continue to get, you know, to build this audience and build, you know, how many people we can help globally.

Steve Fretzin: [00:33:26] So, um, Deirdre, people wanna, um, contact you, they wanna network with you, learn more about you, what are the best ways for them to find you?

Deirdre Nero: [00:33:34] Um, so our social media handles our at Nero immigration, and my email is always the best DNER o@neroimmigration.com. I’d love to hear from, from any of you. Yeah. That listen to this.

Steve Fretzin: [00:33:48] Well, you will tell, I hope, Eric, that I said hello. When you see him later,

Deirdre Nero: [00:33:52] I’ll Of course.

Steve Fretzin: [00:33:53] And, uh, tell him I said hey. And he’s the best. And, um, and just thanks so much for coming on, sharing your story, sharing your know, the authenticity, the entrepreneurship, the mistakes. I mean, all of these things that make, make us stronger and better.

Steve Fretzin: [00:34:05] We have to kind of go through our own little journey. So you, uh, we’re very kind to share yours today. Thank you.

Deirdre Nero: [00:34:09] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Steve Fretzin: [00:34:11] Yeah. Yeah. And thank you everybody for hanging out with Dre I for the last 30 and so in a, in a few minutes, uh, as well. And, um, look, we’re here for your, you know, for your assistance to.

Steve Fretzin: [00:34:22] You know, help you learn all this stuff you never learned in law school. So let’s, let’s keep at it and we’ll continue to keep this stro. And again, if you wanna check out some of our video clips, not only on our YouTube channel under Steve Fretzin, but we are, many of them are on above the law and attorney at work.

Steve Fretzin: [00:34:35] So if you check out those two publications, you will see some of our stuff. Um, thanks everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.

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