Robert Hartmann: Building Rainmaking Skills

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Robert Hartmann discuss:

• Taking ownership of the business of law
• Building rainmaking skills through empathy and responsiveness
• Preparing for independence before you need it
• Networking strategically, not randomly

Key Takeaways:

• Law school prepares lawyers for doctrine, not for marketing, leadership, or running a practice. Lawyers must take responsibility for learning how to generate work and build a book of business. The safest career path is being able to stand on your own if circumstances change.
• Empathy, honesty, and fast communication are powerful differentiators in a crowded market. Treating clients and referral sources with care strengthens reputation and repeat business. Soft skills practiced early, especially as an associate, lay the foundation for becoming a future Rainmaker.
• Every lawyer should be financially and operationally ready to go solo if necessary. That includes savings, strong professional relationships, and clarity around overhead and support systems. Leaving firms well and preserving bridges can turn former employers into future referral sources.
• Effective networking focuses on finding a small group of true strategic partners, not collecting business cards. Let others speak first, listen well, and align your value to their needs. Consistent systems and intentional follow-through turn relationships into long-term referral engines.

“Everybody has the ability with a few simple soft skills to become a good Rainmaker.” —  Robert Hartmann

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About Robert Hartmann: Robert Hartmann is the founder of Hartmann Law Firm and an advocate for helping attorneys develop the soft skills needed to build successful legal careers. With years of experience practicing law and running a boutique firm, Robert emphasizes the importance of networking, relationship-building, and business development, skills often overlooked in traditional legal education. Through his work, he encourages lawyers to take ownership of their careers by building their own books of business and cultivating meaningful professional relationships. Robert is also the author of the upcoming book Making It Rain, which provides practical guidance and checklists for attorneys who want to become effective rainmakers and prepare for starting their own practice. Passionate about mentorship and professional growth, Robert regularly shares insights on networking, empathy in client relationships, and strategic career planning for lawyers.

Connect with Robert Hartmann:

Website: https://www.hartmannlawfirm.net/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-hartmann-565a5919/

Email: bob@hartmannlawfirm.net

Phone: 714-381-1366

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Robert Hartmann  [00:00]

Everybody has the ability with a few simple soft skills to become a good Rainmaker.

 

Narrator  [00:11]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach. Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host. Steve Fretzin, Hey

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:33]

Everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer Podcast. I’m Steve Fretzin, and welcome to the show. This is the show where you’re going to get everything you need to know about how to be that lawyer, successful Rainmaker, who’s going to light the world on fire, and just take control of your career and never look back and never think twice about it. It’s the greatest decision you’ll ever make, is to get your own clients and live your own life, and we’re going to talk a lot about it today. I’ve got an expert in the space. We’re going to be really going back and forth. Rob. You up for that? I’m up for it. Thanks. All right. Well, I had 10 meetings today. I’ve had five already, and five after this, and so my brain is sort of like locked between, you know, the busy day. But I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna pull a rabbit out of a hat, I think, today, and we’re gonna have a good conversation. Let’s start off. Yeah, thank you. Let’s start off with the quote of the quote of the show. Now, I don’t know that anyone’s ever heard this quote before. Even thought it now I’m being super sarcastic. Law schools don’t teach you. What was it you said? Like, law schools don’t teach you how to be. Law schools don’t

 

Robert Hartmann  [01:32]

teach you everything you need to know. And I couldn’t agree with you more about that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:36]

Well, I mean, really, they don’t. They intentionally or otherwise, they focus on teaching you the law and making sure that you can function as a working lawyer. Then we look at marketing, business development, the business of law, time management and 100 leadership, 100 other skills. I don’t know that they have the ability capacity to teach all of that. What’s your take?

 

Robert Hartmann  [01:59]

You know, that’s such a great point. Steve, that’s a really, really good point. You know, honestly, I think they do. I think law schools would have to put some effort into it. So just to give you an example, we all take a class in law school called trial advocacy. It’s in your third year, and it’s, you know, this is how you do an opening statement. This is how you do this. I don’t know that it would be that hard to have a class maybe in your third year, where you bring in some lawyers who are sole practitioners, and they just talk generally about, okay, this is how life in a law firm works. This is what you do. And then if you want to leave the law firm, these are the things you need to do to be able to leave that law firm, go out on your own. Alternatively, you know, everybody in law school is so competitive. If they don’t get a job in the top 10 law firms, they’re all sad. And so, you know, maybe something you could talk with them about is how to start your own practice right away. And I’m not sure that’s impossible. It would take some work, though. Great point.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:04]

Well, I know that there are law schools, and I’ve spoken at a number of law schools, the practice management course or class where I’ll come in and talk on my piece, but they’re not getting into any kind of real depth about it. But I think if there was a course that covered the business of law that might include going out on your own, marketing and business development, time management, how to manage people, leadership, whatever you do, they could break it up. And that would be incredibly powerful for lawyers, not only if they end up in a law firm, but also if they’re entrepreneurial and feeling like they could go out on their own. So we’ll have to talk to some law schools about that. You and me,

 

Robert Hartmann  [03:39]

sounds good. Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting though, right? I mean, it’s just so interesting because if you think about athletics, you know, think about these kids who play college football, and, you know, whatever it may be, they don’t really learn stuff about how to manage their money, or, you know, data. It’s somewhat analogous to that. And I really don’t understand, if I’m in law school, I’m paying 50, $75,000 whatever it is due to law school. Yeah, I don’t understand. Why. They just can’t, you know, have a two hour class once a week on this in one, you know, semester.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:09]

Well, as long as we’re going there, I’m going to go one further is, like, they should be teaching executive functioning to kids in high school. Like, why is it that a teenager is coming out and they don’t know anything about money, they don’t know anything about life. They know anything about how to function with a calendar, how to function with, you know, basic things that we do every day. And they’re coming out and they’re wondering, like, how the world works, you know, outside of outside their telephones?

 

Robert Hartmann  [04:33]

Yeah, that is a great point. And, you know, it’s interesting, because you have to ask yourself if people coming out of high school knew how to manage their money and just new basic skills like that that you need to operate in everyday life. I just think we’d be way better off, quite honestly. Yeah, well, let’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:49]

keep this focused for the rest of the time on lawyers, but I want to take a step back with you, everybody. Rob Hartmann is the owner of Hartmann law firm, and take us back to how you, you know, crafted your. Career, not only as an expert in criminal law, but also as a networking marketing kind of Guru.

 

Robert Hartmann  [05:06]

Well, I think the way I would start it off is I began practicing in 1987 I was a deputy district attorney. After that, I went to work with a law firm in Orange County, and we handled cases. We were appointed by the court. If the public defender had a conflict of interest. We got the case. Our law firm got the case, and I was doing that for five years, and then something happened with the county where our law firm no longer was to receive those cases, and that was 90% of the work that we did. So I walk into work one day, and the partners who I really enjoyed, we love sports and talking with it. Every day they bring me into their office. We have to let you go. I had 4000 bucks in the bank and had a mortgage and a car paid, right? And so at that time, I didn’t really know what to do. What I did know how to do is I knew that I had been in front of all the judges. I had tried lots and lots of cases. I knew prosecutors, and I had an idea of how to treat people. And so with that, the way I got my practice going was I started making special appearances for attorneys who needed it, you know, covering court appearances for them. I brought in, and I just word of mouth with everybody I knew, you know, send me anything you need me to do. And over four or five years, that really got me going. And then I got my I distinctly remember I got my first murder case, and that was like at the time, it was the most money I’d ever heard of in my life, right? Yeah. And once that got going, and once I was bringing in enough of my own business, I stopped taking court appointed cases, they didn’t pay enough. And I figured out that the way you treat people, the way you you do a great job for some other lawyer on their case, the way you treat people, the way you treat referrals, the way you handle it, if you show empathy to people, that’s what keeps the business coming in and keeps you growing.

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:55]

Yeah, well, that’s that couldn’t be more true. And then, you know, there’s this whole element of, you know, lawyering and becoming a great lawyer. And then you’re talking about some soft skills that you figured out on your own. And you know, we’re all humans, we can demonstrate empathy, but I think empathy has to be a skill that’s not only, you know, talked about, but utilized. And then what are some other soft skills that you found really were helpful to develop stronger relationships, to bring in the business,

 

Robert Hartmann  [07:25]

you know, I think the most obvious one is returning phone calls quickly. Yeah, you know, back in the day, I remember had a car phone in my car anchored to the base, you know, and I if a lawyer called me and said, I have a referral for you, if they let I called them back right away. When the person came in talking about soft skills, I treat them like gold. One thing I figured out, Steve is that when someone comes in and they’ve been referred by someone else, the other person is so hoping that you do a good job with that client, that you take care of them, because you want to, you know they want to look good to their own client, who they sent you. So for me, I think the soft skill was developing, the skill that I made the referring source look really good by how well I took care of the client. And again, that means returning phone calls, that means returning texts. That means when the client says, I have a question, don’t rushing them off the phone, being on time, and I think something important, Steve, honesty, telling them what you can do. I do criminal defense, and not every client gets away with no jail, right? And so when they come in the door, you can’t over promise them. Not supposed to promise them anyway, but you can’t over promise what you can do if you’re straight up with them. If you’re sincere with them, if they sense you’re doing everything you can to help them, and you act like it every day, they’ll be happy with what you do. And, more importantly, they will then tell the referral source they really liked you. Yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:56]

And that helps building the brand, and helps continue to get, not only the repeat referrals, but also, you know, criminals, no criminals. And, you know, this is profe, you know, GCS, no GCS, and CEOs, no CEOs, and the list goes on and on. So there’s that, and then there’s the other thing that I just want to add to this. And it’s hard to return calls, it’s hard to do some of the things that we talk about in this show all the time when lawyers are just, you know, hair on fire, and just like running in 1000 directions and overwhelmed, and so I’m continually working with them on planning and execution and time management and time mastery. And how are we running our day instead of letting it run us? What’s your take on that? And how do you stay organized to be able to be present for the people who need you? So I

 

Robert Hartmann  [09:45]

think the number one thing is I stay ahead of the work curve. In other words, I get my work done. I don’t leave stuff till the last minute. Because, Steve, I always anticipate. What am I gonna you know, I don’t want to get far behind, because what if a case comes in, what if a call comes in? I. Need to be able to have sufficient time to be able to talk to them and not feel rushed because I have a project due. So I think that’s one example. I think a second example, and this happened a couple days ago. I’ll just tell you real quick story. 1145 in the morning, I’m in court. Court breaks at noon. I have a case that still needs to be called by noon. I get a text at 1145 in the morning, new client, federal case, and I’m saying to myself, Okay, I need to call this person back right now. But you know, I’m waiting for the judge to call my case. So you know, literally, what I did is I asked the clerk, I said, I have an emergency. I’ve got to take a call. Can you call my case at 130 and they were kind enough to do it. So I think as much of an inconvenience, it kind of wasn’t my schedule that day that was helping that client immediately really paid dividends. And again, it when I told them the story about how I told the judge, can I just come back at 130 they thought they were gold to me, right? Yeah. And again, guess what happens? They tell the referring attorney, what I did, and the referral, they think I’m really sweet too. So it’s little thing, and again, it’s not a big thing, but it’s just, it’s common sense and it just works,

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:10]

yeah, and so there’s working at a firm and being a service attorney, and I’m kind of grinding people on this show every, you know, week, twice a week, about how problematic that can be. And again, if you can get away with it through your lifetime, and you retire in 40 years, and you’ve been a service attorney, being fed the whole time, I just want to take my hat off to you, congratulations. Then there’s the reality of what’s really going on, whether it’s, you know, 2008 whether it’s the current environment, AI, changing the course of the future, I think it’s really important for lawyers to start thinking strategically about how they build their own book of business. What’s the benefit in your mind of lawyers that make that adjustment and change to start creating their own client list?

 

Robert Hartmann  [11:56]

Yeah, Steve, I couldn’t agree with you more. The way that I really became interested in networking, just as a concept is during covid, I kept getting resume after resume and call after call from these people who were getting laid off from big firms and the eight, 910, years, they’re really good lawyers. They have no clue what to do. And it was amazing to me that they had no plan in place, to, you know, no exit strategy, if you will, about what to do and they and the general fear they had was, I can’t bring in business. So I think to answer your question directly, I think the answer is, attorneys in law firms today, everybody needs to be ready to go out on their own. If something happens, it’s what. When I told you the story of how I got fired, I never thought I was going to get fired from that job. You know, it’s almost like working for the county. It’s good money and it’s easy. I don’t have to bring in any business. You always have to be ready for, you know, whatever may happen. And I think that what escapes most people is it’s not impossible to bring in your own business. It’s common sense. Nobody ever taught them. Nobody in their law firm ever taught them. Their Law School never taught them, so they have no idea. And I think part of maybe what I can help with this book I’m writing is how to get people to understand that while they’re working in a law firm, they can put things in place. So if they ever have to go out on their own, they can do so easy,

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:23]

yeah, what would be some of those things? I mean, obviously, having a client, you know, getting a list of clients and building a, you know, I’m going to just throw a number on saying, you know, half a million dollar book is kind of a good start. What are the things they would have on this list? That’s like the just in case list mentioned,

 

Robert Hartmann  [13:40]

yeah, you know what I would say is, with every lawyer in their contact book, you know who they’re either friends with or colleagues with, have their information readily available and be aware. Know what you want to say to them if you’re ever fired. Also what that means is, when you’re if you’re at a law firm, and you’re dealing with them in your everyday life, be nice to them. Give them an extension if it’s even remotely doable, don’t do things to antagonize them, because these are people down the road who might feed you some business. I think that’s one thing, is just treating other people well, because someday those other people may be referral sources for you. I think another thing that you want to start thinking about when you’re in a law firm is, what are the real things in everyday life I need to do to start a law firm? How much money do I need to start a law firm? So for example, Steve, if you said to me, you know, Hey, I’m Steve, and I work in a law firm, and I’m, you know what, I want to just be ready to go out on my own. If I ever need to, I’d say, You know what, put six months aside. Just have six months in the bank that you don’t touch. Because, you know what, if you have six months in the bank, and God forbid, something happens to your job or you just decide to leave, guess what? You’re not going to stress as much. Right? And then what I would do is I’d have a checklist of things I need to do. What kind of office would I want to have? Who are some lawyers I might like to share office space, who do different cases than me, where we can refer to each other, you know, little you know, where do I want my office to be? Do I want to have a paralegal? Do I want to, you know, data. Those are all things you can think about, you can think about what those financial obligations are, and that’s part of your thought process in deciding whether you want to stay with this firm.

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:28]

Yeah, and it’s good to know that there are resources out there, you know, whether it’s you or me or bookkeepers. And just like you know, just there’s resources for lawyers, for just about everything. So you need it. You need a cheap website put together, or you need someone to handle your phones virtually, or you just need, you know, you know, a virtual office set up, or whatever you know. And how do I do that with Google? My business so I’m findable. Whatever it might be, there are people that can help you with that. Resources. Now we have aI so in many cases, you could just ask AI specifically what you need for X, Y and Z, and you’ll probably get some pretty good answers out of that.

 

Robert Hartmann  [16:07]

Yeah, you know what? I’ll Steve, I’ll tell you another just real quick thing you can do that. Just thought about, you know, I remember one job I had before I became a deputy DA. I worked in an insurance defense firm, and I really didn’t like it, and the work I did, I’m sure, was not very good, but I really enjoyed the partners, and I just remember thinking to myself, You know what? I have a chance to go work in the DAs office. I don’t really like this job. I’m going to give them notice. So rather than make the giving notice to my partners a lot of drama, I made an appointment to go in and talk with them. I explained to them precisely why I was leaving. I love I appreciate you guys teaching me how to be a lawyer. I’ve learned a lot of great things here. I just this is not the kind of work for me. I’d rather be a prosecutor, and by leaving on good terms, guess what happened when I stopped being a prosecutor? I went on to the defense side that law firm 40 years ago still refers me cases because I left on such good terms. So if you do leave, think about how you want to exit and not burn bridges and keep them as a potential referral source.

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:13]

Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin Here and@lawyer.com They don’t just market law firms. They help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com Check them out today, with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year. You know, one of the things that I hear on a fairly regular basis with lawyers that I engage with is they don’t really know, like, what the elevation is at their firm. They don’t really know what the potential comp is there. There’s a closed comp structure. They don’t know what the path to equity is, and they might really like their firm, but somebody’s at the top making decisions, and it’s not, you know, transparent or open, and that’s a concern when I talk to these lawyers, because that makes it very challenging for us to sort of know what we need to do to get to the next level, or do we need To start looking at a different firm and everything? How do you navigate that? Or how do you recommend lawyers navigate that?

 

Robert Hartmann  [19:06]

You know, that’s, again, a great point, Steve, you know, I think what most lawyers hear when they interview at a law firm is, you know, what they always ask, How do I become a partner? Right? And, well, you know, if you do a good job bringing somebody, we’ll revisit that issue in seven years. Okay, very rarely, as you just described, happens. I think that when you are an associate for a firm, it is a great opportunity for you to practice those soft skills that you’re going to use someday out on your own. So for example, you’re an attorney in a big firm. You’re working with a client on a big case, get to know the client. Get to understand what the client’s situation is. Have some empathy for what they’re going through, because they needed to hire you. Interact with the other lawyers, interact with the court. You know the point of the story is that you. You want to establish to the partners at your firm that you have those soft skills that could make you a great Rainmaker. You want the client to report to the partner? Oh, my God, I loved working with Steve. He was great to work with. He did a great job on the case. He returned my phone calls on time. He had the right answers. He was always there for us, and the partner is going to recognize that, you know, boy, that’s pretty good. This is the type of individual Steve who may have the ability to attract other business. We put him with other clients. So I think one thing would be, you start practicing those soft skills. You know, that’s something you can do any day.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:43]

Yeah, well, you’ve got this book coming out making it rain, which is super exciting, and I would love for you to just to share two or three tenets of what’s in the book that lawyers that are interested in getting it could, you know, would would find valuable. Well, I

 

Robert Hartmann  [20:59]

appreciate that. I think the first thing is people are not trapped. I think the main tenet of the book is people should not feel trapped if they are unhappy in their day job. And Steve, I suspect, you know, just from your question, I suspect you get a lot of folks like that who you’re talking with, right? Yeah, I’ve worked at this for eight or nine years. I’m very comfortable. I have a nice car, I have a slot, I have a nice life, you know? I work 2000 hours a year, but it’s okay, you know? And I’m not doing really, doing what I like, whatever. People should not feel trapped, if that’s not for them. Something important to me was being able to go to my daughter’s softball games, which were in the middle of the day. I could never do that in a big firm, and so I had to be able to work on my own, set my own schedule, get the work done when it needed to be done. So one tenet of the book would be, don’t feel trapped. Everybody has the ability, with a few simple soft skills, to become a good Rainmaker. That’s probably number one. The second tenet of the book, I think that’s important, is we have a checklist in this book of literally everything you need to do if you make the decision six months or a year from now. I’m going to leave there’s a list of things in there that basically these are the things you need to think about over the six months to a year. And if you follow this checklist, it’ll give you a great head start in getting your do business running. And then I think the the last thing I would say is empathy, how to treat people, how to network, how to create relationships. You know, there’s a discussion in the book about the distinction between networking, you know, interpersonal networking, personal relationships versus, you know, SEO or being on the radio or in a newspaper. In my experience, relationship networking is so much more effective for people than anything else and those there’s a big discussion in the book about how to get involved in that, how not to be afraid of it, and how to be successful and good at it. You know, little things, Steve like, let’s say you and I are in a networking meeting, and we decide we want to meet each other for a cup of coffee when we’re done, I’m always going to let you go first and let you tell me what you do first. I want you to feel sincerely that I have an active interest in what you do. How can I help you? Yeah, and to me, those are the real basic things people need to do to become successful well.

 

Steve Fretzin  [23:27]

And the other benefit of letting someone else talk first is you learn. You learn what they’re up to. You learn what they need. You learn, you know, maybe where they’ve got pain points or where they need, they need assistance. And then when you go you can then craft a little bit of a different infomercial, or elevator pitch, or whatever we want to call it, so that it’s more streamlined to what they had said, or to answer some questions, or to be be a stronger referral source for them. So I like that idea. You know, I would, I would just add that, you know, my one of my second to last books called legal, business development isn’t rocket science, and you’ve alluded to that a number of times the the it, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy. Um, if it was easy, everybody would already be a rainmaker. So I think, I think what we’re talking about is there are systems, there’s planning, there’s language, there’s things that are learnable, that you didn’t learn in law school or at the law firm level, but from you and for me, and from being a student of the game of rainmaking, there’s an opportunity to take, to take it to next level, but it takes effort and it takes a little bit of desire in order to change and just not say that stay the course of I’m going to be a service partner, and this allows me to go home at six o’clock and see my family. It’s not that you can’t do that as a rainmaker, but there’s going to be a sacrifice, at least initially, of some time that you’ve got to get things going. Yeah, Steve,

 

Robert Hartmann  [24:53]

another thing I have found is that there’s an with a lot of people, there’s an innate fear of net. Networking, of that term, networking, you know. And honestly, I’d become pretty good at it, but when I first started, I hated it, you know, if it was up to me, I would rather be right, you know, right now, let’s say, standing up in front of a jury doing a closing argument on a heinous murder case, because, you know what, I’m in control. I It’s my closing argument. Blah, blah. I am much more comfortable doing that than networking. But you know what, when I went to my first networking meeting, there were 25 people in there, just like me, who were a little bit nervous about it, who maybe hadn’t done it too much before. And once you start talking and relaxing and getting to know people, it’s not so bad. And I think that’s something we want to communicate to people.

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:40]

Well, I also push, you know, sales, free, methodologies, and so let’s, let’s take that we’re out networking to get business. Let’s say we’re out networking to meet people, to qualify who, who are the people we want to invest more time in, and who are the people that we can just connect on LinkedIn. And let’s start kind of, you know, you know, weeding through that’s I’ve equated to, like dating, you know, I’m going 10 dates. Not all of them are marriage quality. So, right? So we have to start thinking about all right? These are the two that you know are synergistic with my law practice. These are two people that that are givers and that really understand networking, that have the capacity, the ability to refer me because they’re in front of the same people. And then there’s these other eight that are knuckleheads and they’re takers, and they’re not really great. But I had to go through those 10 to get to the two. The two are the ones that are going to help get you through your year. And then two becomes 10, or eight to 10 strategic partners. And now you’ve got all this business coming in from these amazing resources, but it took you 100 people to get to the tent.

 

Robert Hartmann  [26:45]

See you just, Steve, what you just said is, so right on. So, so in my first couple of years after I got fired, I distinctly remember I had a goal of making of meeting, let’s say four to 10 new referral sources every year. And you are so right? I had to get through 100 people, you know, who I met, yeah, but you know what, if I could get four to 10 lawyers who would refer me a criminal case whenever it came about, and I just built upon that every year, right at a certain point, you know, whatever it is achieves critical mass, whatever the term is, you know, once you get it to where you need to get it, it just becomes self perpetuating. And I did exactly what you talked about, and I remember you, you know, I was describing how I always let people go first, right? Let’s say you’re no, you schedule one hour meeting over coffee at Starbucks, right? They talk about themselves for like, 59 minutes and like, Okay, now, how about you? And it’s like, oh, you know,

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:44]

yeah, I’ll give you that one minute that, yeah, practicing, yeah.

 

Robert Hartmann  [27:48]

And those, you know, and you know that. And you funny thing is, you learn that really quickly, well. And I also,

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:54]

you know, I teach lawyers very clear systems of how to run those coffee meetings so that you get equal talk time, and so that you’re really being cognizant of of how you’re adding value for others and helping them selflessly, not necessarily just to get the reciprocation, but with the understanding that, you know, we’re both here for a reason. You’re looking for business. I’m looking for business. There may be synergies. Let’s, let’s see how we play in the sandbox together. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot of different ways to do things. But I think what lawyers are really looking for, they’re looking to cut through the figuring it out on their own, and spaghetti against the wall and all things. So that’s where, you know your book, and my books, and other you know, videos and podcasts like this and other things are really valuable to lawyers because they need, they need to, to get the soft skills and learn them and utilize them. So Rob, I got one question for you. This is the most important question I’m going to ask. What’s Rob’s Big mistake? So, and let me, let me because we didn’t, I didn’t prep you for that, by the way, that’s all right. So a big mistake you made in your career, in your life, and it was devastating in the moment, but you came out the other end, like even better because of it. And you can’t say the one about losing your job, because that wasn’t your mistake. That was life.

 

Robert Hartmann  [29:08]

No, I can tell you quite honestly, I was without saying the name of the case. It was a big criminal case in LA County about 25 years ago, it was a big case in the national news. I don’t really do that many cases that are in the news. I don’t for whatever reason, but I came in second on that case, you know, probably a million dollar fee, yeah. And so for me, the client and their family was kind enough, you know, a little bit into the case to tell me why, and what it was. Steve was, Hey, Rob, you’re a sole practitioner. You have two assistants. We wanted the big firm. We wanted the big firm experience. We wanted all the lawyers, all the junior associates, all the resources, although we feel that you’re a really good lawyer. We’re not sure you’re able to provide us what we need in this kind of case, we’ll refer you to all of our people who but we don’t need you. And honestly, Steve, that was probably an epiphany for me, because it made me realize that no matter how good a lawyer I am, that’s not what potential clients see. What potential clients see is, does he return my phone call? Is he nice to me? Does he rush me off the phone? Do I think he’s I wouldn’t have they won’t call me unless I think I’m competent. So that’s not the issue. What they’re looking for, all those other things. The other thing I got from that meeting and losing that case Steve was I have a great network, I have experts, I have investigators, I have just as many resources as that big firm does. They just don’t all work in my office. And so what I learned to do in that meeting was explain to clients how a boutique firm experience, in many ways, is better than a big firm experience. So to give you an example, and you know this, Steve, if you have a part, you go into a big firm, you talk to the partner, you hire, you know, you hire them for you six months after that, to reach the partner, you got to get through three gatekeepers at a boutique firm like mine, they get my cell phone, they call me on a Saturday.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:23]

Yeah, no, it happened to me with a personal injury where I went a year without hearing back, and I’m leaving voicemails, like, just want an update, nobody got back to me. It was, like, super frustrating.

 

Robert Hartmann  [31:33]

So yeah, and that’s the Epiphany, though, is that was and again. So it was a distressing moment. Sorry to interrupt. It was a distressing moment, but it I really was able to turn it into, like, maybe just changing things a little bit about how I talk with certain clients.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:49]

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So you’re making adjustments because you recognized something that they picked up on that you hadn’t realized was hurting your ability to bring in the bigger deals. So, really, great. Hey, let’s take a moment thank our wonderful sponsors, as we’re wrapping up today, of course, legal broadcasting company where this podcast is syndicated. So check out their website and check out them online. Of course, lawyer.com Great directory rankings, io and pimcon. And if you haven’t, checked out future rainmakers, my other podcast, check it out. More direct advice from edu Q and A style bringing on some clients. So check that out, Rob. People want to get in touch with you. They want to network with you. They want to grab your book. What are all the digits that you have that you can share?

 

Robert Hartmann  [32:32]

Well, no, that’d be great. I appreciate it. My website is Hartmann Law firm.net H, A R, T, M, a n, n. Law firm.net and shortly they’ll be able to look at, you know, get the book from there, and it’s other things on there. The other thing is, they can just call me, then call my cell phone. It’s 714-381-1366, never too busy to talk to someone about any skill, anything they ever need.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:57]

Yeah. Well, very generous of you, and I appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom, having such great dialog with me today. I know there’s a lot of you know, solos and and law firm partners and associates listening that are, you know, really thinking, hey, you know, this is important thing to start preparing for. You know, what might be coming up the pike and how to be prepared? Because, you know, world is an uncertain place. And I think, you know, having having a list of things that you need to prepare for, if that you know what hits the fan, not a bad not a bad play, but so thanks

 

Robert Hartmann  [33:27]

again, Rob. I appreciate you. Thanks for having me, Steve. I it was really enjoyable. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure.

 

Steve Fretzin  [33:31]

And thank you everybody for hanging out with Rob for and I, for the last 30 and change, got my usual page of notes, lots of videos going to come out around this and check out my YouTube channel. Steve Fretzin, I think 1100 videos. So we’re really cooking over there. And again, just, you know, check us out on above the law. Attorney at work, we’ve got all this stuff going, going with those publications, and all about one thing that’s helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take it easy. Everybody. Be well.

 

Narrator  [34:03]

thanks for listening to be that loyal, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.