Danny Decker: Making The Client The Hero Of Your Marketing

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Danny Decker discuss:

• Putting the client at the center
• Building your brand around real client needs
• Turning client questions into content
• Taking action and refining along the way

Key Takeaways:

• Strong legal marketing shifts the spotlight away from the lawyer and toward the client’s problems, emotions, and desired outcomes. Messaging that builds trust acknowledges what clients are going through and offers a clear, supportive path forward.
• Credentials and accolades matter less than demonstrating empathy and relevance. The most effective personal brands show clients that you understand their situation and can guide them from uncertainty to resolution.
• The questions asked in consultations are the same ones potential clients are searching online and through AI. Transforming these into blogs, videos, and posts builds visibility, authority, and trust over time.
• Progress in marketing comes from execution, not perfection. Moving quickly, learning from mistakes, and adjusting direction creates far more momentum than waiting for the perfect strategy.

“Your customers should be the hero of your marketing.” —  Danny Decker

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About Danny Decker: Danny Decker is Partner & Cofounder of Spotlight Marketing & Branding. In addition to building his team, he frequently speaks at events and workshops and hosts multiple podcasts on business and marketing. His books, The Automatic Marketing Machine and Marketing Simplified, are available on Amazon. Danny lives in Huntersville, North Carolina, with his wife & their two kids.

Connect with Danny Decker:

Website: https://spotlightbranding.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danieljdecker/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Danny Decker  [00:00]

Listen, I might run 60 miles an hour in the wrong direction, but guess what? I’m gonna figure out it’s the wrong direction and then turn around and run 60 miles in the right direction and be way ahead of where I would have been if I had just been sitting still the whole time.

 

Narrator  [00:17]

You’re listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:39]

Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin, and welcome to the be that lawyer podcast. If you guys are unfamiliar with the show, welcome. I’m happy you’re here. It’s all about how to help you know the rising tides lift all boats, if you will, and how to grow a successful law practice, and whether you’re a solo, big law anything in between. We’re here for you. If you’re a longtime listener, I want to thank you and be sure you’re checking us out at above the law attorney at work, and coming soon, we’re going to be on the YouTube channel for National Law Review, if not already. So check us out in multiple places, as well as our own YouTube channel on fretzn.com Danny, what’s happening?

 

Danny Decker  [01:14]

Man? How you been? Steve, it is great to be here. I I’m doing great. I appreciate the invitation. I’m a big fan of your show. Also was fortunate enough to have you on our show recently as well, so I’m looking forward to connecting again. And yeah, thanks for having me.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:28]

Well, now we get to flip roles, and I get to beat you up for 30 minutes. How about that?

 

Danny Decker  [01:32]

Let’s do it. I can’t wait. You’re up for it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:35]

You’re up for it, all right. Well, let’s do let’s jump in. We’ve got our quote of the show. And you know, this is something that people don’t realize. They kind of put their, you know, like you think about like the Law firm website with the three old white guys on the front of it, right? That’s like the old standard for websites. But this quote is Donald Miller. It’s your customers should be the hero of your marketing. So again, welcome to the show. And then tell us why you love that quote.

 

Danny Decker  [01:57]

Yeah. I mean, you know, so that’s from Donald Miller’s book story brand, right? Which came out, I don’t know, probably 10 years ago now. And I thought it was just a fantastic paradigm to kind of reshift how people think about messaging and marketing, you know, specifically, and I think it is, is super relevant to law firms, right? Because as law firm owners, you know, you guys are highly educated, highly technical, know the law really, really well, and naturally speaking, tend to gear your messaging around the law and the technical pieces of this. And you know, it becomes a very technical how the sausage is made conversation. And that completely misses the average law firm consumer who who doesn’t understand that, who is intimidated by that, and really only wants to talk to a law firm because they are having some type of problem in their personal life or their business life that they need result. And so Reframing the Message to be, hey, Mr. Client, I understand that you’re having this situation and it’s making you feel this way. I get it. I can help you get to a better point, and you’re going to feel this way, and we’re going to make it as painless as possible, and we’re going to guide you every step of the way, and we’re not going to intimidate you, and we’re not going to make you feel stupid. That’s a winning message, and I just love that approach. And we’ve tried to build everything we do in our agency and for our clients around that filter.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:21]

Yeah, I mean, as a coach that works with lawyers around the world, it’s it. I have a service I’m providing. I’m very proud of what we do, however, where I get my kicks and where I get it really happy. And what gets me up every day is a client closing a big matter, a client hitting their numbers, making equity partner, opening up their own shop. So it’s like, when I think about with a quote and the hero, they’re my heroes, like they’re the heroes in my story of what I’m looking to accomplish in my life can’t happen without them hitting big numbers and doing what makes them successful in their careers. And I think that’s a lot of what this is going towards.

 

Danny Decker  [03:57]

That’s exactly right. I mean, there’s a reason why, at our agency, like we don’t lead our messaging isn’t look what we can do with SEO and Google ads and and AI search. The messaging is, hey, we’re going to help you get more clients. We’re going to help you get better clients, because at the end of the day, that’s what they want, and they really don’t care, generally speaking, how we make that sausage? Yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:16]

Well, everybody, if you’re wondering who Danny Decker is and how he got shot out of a cannon this morning, I’m going to tell you he’s the co founder of spotlight marketing and branding, and give us a little background. Not everybody’s built to run agencies. Danny, so how do you get how’d you find this path?

 

Danny Decker  [04:31]

Yeah, so I went to college in 2007 thinking I was going to be a finance major and work on Wall Street. And I did get my degree in finance, and I graduated in 2009 which you may recall, is right when the entire financial world melted down. That turned out to be a great thing for me, because there were no jobs to be found in finance. And instead, I stumbled into working with a legal marketing agency, and fell in love with it, and realized that was my calling. And so did that for a couple of years. And then 2011 2000 12, started an agency with a good friend of mine, and still my business partner today. And you know, we started as kind of a generalist agency, and quickly realized that we were meant to work in legal we love collaborating with lawyers. We love the work that lawyers do. And so we switched our focus to be legal specific, probably in 2013 2014 and have really just grown from there. We now have, you know, pushing 200 clients in 30 plus states and and we love what we do. Yeah, it’s always

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:29]

amazing when non, you know, people that are not in a particular industry or area end up in it. And you know, I went to school for business, and I haven’t really, you talked about this too much, but I ended up in a major that was as far away from business as possible. And, you know, but then I got out of college, I started in sales. I worked my way up the food chain, and I started, you know, changing into, like, more of a business guy than a sales guy, you know, understanding, like I was in franchising. So I understood, like, how to buy and sell a business, and how to actually help, you know, franchisees be successful. And all the while I’m coaching them, I’m thinking in the back of my head, you know, what’s going to be my jam? What’s going to be my my business? I know I’m going to do something like that. I’m an entrepreneur. I just don’t know what am I going to own? A Dairy Queen. True story, I looked at a Dairy Queen, but they wanted me to buy an Orange Julius with them. And I didn’t like Orange Julius, and didn’t know too much about it, so I was like, All right, so it was a great thing because I didn’t, I didn’t, I’m happy I’m not in the dairy,

 

Danny Decker  [06:23]

the little hinges that, yeah, the little hinges that swing big doors, right? Like, if they had, what, if you had been in Orange Julius and you went down that road and, man,

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:31]

it’s crazy. I mean, I don’t even, yeah, I can’t even fathom, like, what that would be like, you know, but if that’s a thing, like the sliding doors, like, he’s, like, you know, you just, you know, make one decision, one way or another, right? It could be, you know, changing your My son is in college, and he was thinking about going into business, and then he just completely did a one a 180 and he’s talking about forestry and, like, fisheries, which is, by the way, like his passion since he was a baby, is, you know, fishing. So I’m not gonna, you know, it’s his, course, it’s his. It’s in that may end up being, you know, he does that, but then he ends up in entrepreneur running something and you know, completely different. You just don’t know. You don’t know.

 

Danny Decker  [07:04]

And I’m a big believer in that’s why you should take action, right? The worst thing that can happen is sitting around an indecision. It’s like, listen, I might run 60 miles an hour in the wrong direction, but guess what? I’m gonna figure out it’s the wrong direction and then turn around and run 60 miles in the right direction and be way ahead of where I would have been if I had just been sitting still the whole time. So, man, I’m all about make decisions, take action. Hopefully you’re going in the right direction. If you’re not, you’re going to pivot and figure out how to get there.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:31]

Yeah, one of the things that I want to talk about, because this is right in your sweet spot. In mine, as well as a non, you know, marketing agency guy, I care a lot about lawyer success and business development, but I know that if they just do that alone, they’re not getting the full juice out of the squeeze. So I’m always talking to them about their branding and their positioning and their differentiators and their infomercials and all the things. How are they being positioned online? How are they being positioned on LinkedIn? What’s your take on why lawyers sort of suck so badly at this particular aspect of the business of law Well, I

 

Danny Decker  [08:07]

mean, let’s be fair. They don’t teach it in law school. Most lawyers never heard that. People Right, right? Yeah, most lawyers go to law school. Yeah, they didn’t go to law school because this is what they’re excited about. Most of them did not open a law practice because they’re excited about marketing and branding. And honestly, like, great. Like, I completely get that, but I also do agree with you that it is obviously a really important skill. And the good news is the lawyers that I speak to pretty much universally, are incredibly intelligent, incredibly adaptable, and are able to do this stuff, and are able to understand this stuff, and so, you know, that’s my answer. I think it’s completely reasonable that your average law firm owner really doesn’t understand this stuff because nobody taught them.

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:52]

Yeah, well, that’s why we’re here, right? I mean, you and I are in the business of sort of filling in the gaps of where lawyers, you know, struggle. So then, what when if a lawyer or law firm owner, like, needs to figure out, like, what is my brand? Like, I’m I’m in personal injury, or I’m in divorce, and there’s a lot of people doing this, what are some of the things that you would, you know, ask them and consult them with to try to figure out, like, what is their brand?

 

Danny Decker  [09:18]

Yeah, no, it’s a great question. And honestly, we could go really deep into this. I’ve actually done like half day workshops just on this topic. But here is the thing I started through the filter that we just talked about at the beginning of this episode, which is, remember that at the end of the day, strong, effective branding and marketing is more about your clients than yourself. And so personal branding is a really interesting sort of application of that, because I definitely believe in personal branding, and it’s really important for a lawyer to build a personal brand and be known and be liked and be trusted that drives referrals, that drives clients. Client loyalty that drives easier sales conversations. But I really believe that the way to do that most successfully is first to start with, like, a deep understanding of who your clients are and what their pain points are, and to construct your personal brand through that filter. So like, yes, it does need to be authentic. Like, you can’t really fake. You shouldn’t fake. You know being passionate about something, if you’re not passionate about it, but my strong encouragement is not to focus a personal brand on where you went to law school, on the awards that you’ve won, on your legal expertise. It’s really more about focusing your brand on how you make life better for your clients. And we can dig into what that looks like, if you want to, but that’s my high level answer. Is, invest in a personal brand, but do it through the filter of, listen, my clients are the hero of this story, not myself. Okay, you know what

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:58]

I am, the deep dive guy. So, like, I can’t avoid it when you say, we could take a deeper dive here. The one of the things that I ask my clients about on a fairly regular basis is, you know, why do your clients love you? Or what do they tell you when you get compliments from your clients, what are the things that they’re saying about you that you either know or that maybe you didn’t know? And I think what that does is it opens up their eyes that they’ve never, you know, had anyone that was more responsive than I’ve been, and they keep telling me how responsive I’m being, where they keep saying, you know, I ask deeper questions that gets to the bottom of a case so that they can, you know, come up with a creative solution. And it’s creative solutions that is really what makes you know you special as a lawyer. Keep going from that like, what are the other things that you would ask a lawyer that might pull out something that is either easily brandable, differentiate or, you know, that, again, makes they’re not the hero, but it, but they, it helps them understand how they’re adding value.

 

Danny Decker  [11:58]

Yeah, I So, first off, I love what you just laid out as a starting point. I think that is awesome. And I think what I would add to that in really the same conversation is what are the top five questions, concerns, emotions that your clients are bringing into the initial engagement, right? And so most lawyers get the same handful of questions over and over in their consultation, yeah, okay, that’s really important information. That is what your prospective clients care about. That is what is keeping them up at night, by the way, that is what they are researching on Google and AI and so my suggestion is build part of your brand around answering those questions. I think one of the best things that a law firm and a lawyer can do from a personal branding standpoint and a content marketing standpoint, is build an editorial calendar that is 100% based on the questions that their clients bring to initial consultations, right? Because if they’re asking that of you, they are also jumping on Google and asking that question. They’re jumping on chat, GPT and answering that question. So one of the things we encourage our clients to do, and really frankly, do for our clients, is come up with that list. What are the top 10 burning questions? And each one of those questions should be a piece of content that goes out on your blog. It should be a video that goes on your website, that goes on YouTube. You can post about it on LinkedIn. But the idea is we are building content and building our content strategy around the actual questions that are keeping their clients up at night.

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:41]

Yeah, and is it the use of the of those pain points and those questions and the answers that are being provided by the attorney a part of what makes their brand, separates their brand from others? I mean, if we’re getting deeper into how someone develops a brand that people will remember and want to call and I the story I use is when I had a bad accident and I broke both my arms, and my dad pushed the phone in my ear to put a personal injury attorney on. It was the guy in the space of the injury that I got hurt like he didn’t call 10 guys. He called one guy because the guy had branded the junk out of the specific situation that I found myself in. So how would you, you know, circle, that square, and add to that,

 

Danny Decker  [14:22]

yeah, I would just say that that the speaking to the questions, speaking to the fears, the concerns, the emotions of the prospective client, is a great add on to that personal brand, right? If a lawyer has built a personal brand in in any practice area, you know that a big part of it is, is themselves and their passion and their personal story. I think that’s great, but I do always come back to that filter of, why should the client care? And I would argue that most clients are less interested in the. Lawyer’s background than they are in how can this lawyer help me get from point A to point B? Does he understand me? Does he get what I’m going through? Do I feel confident that he or she is the right person to lead me through? You know, this challenge, and I would argue that one of the best ways to do that is to address that stuff head on, right? So, you know, in the family law space, it’s like, hey, you know you’re going through divorce. You know you’re worried about losing half your income, you’re worried about losing your house. You don’t know what this what co parenting is going to be like. You’ve got all these questions, all these concerns, all these anxieties. I would build my brand around being the person that answer those questions, and I get it, and I understand where you’re coming from, and, by the way, I can help you get to a better place, because I know you’re scared right now. Like, that’s that, to me, is like the centerpiece of a brand strategy and a content strategy, yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [15:56]

another angle is the why, like, what makes you authentically you, what’s going to drive in the kinds of clients you want to work with, that that you know are like you, like I don’t want to work with egomaniacs and a holes and people that think they know everything. They’re not coachable and they’re not my people. The people I work with are like me. They care about education, they care about growth. They want to find systems and ways of doing it. What’s the role of authenticity in building a brand? And how can you expand on that?

 

Danny Decker  [16:25]

Yeah, I mean, you said it, and I think that is something that is easier said than done, right? Like we’ve all heard, you need to be authentic, right? But including myself, and that’s, you know, something I have tried to be mindful of. And I’ll tell you, it’s easier said than done, right? Because you have all those those things that have been drilled into our heads, like, well, is, am I being professional enough? Is this the way a lawyer should carry themselves? So one of the things I would just encourage people to do is, is get active on LinkedIn, right? There are the legal marketing conversation on LinkedIn is really fascinating right now, and there are a lot of law firm owners, people like yourself, Steve, you know, marketing folks who are really, I think, leaning into their individual beliefs, philosophies, takes on things. And I just think that’s great. And I think that when you see other people doing it, that gives you some courage to say, okay, I can go find my version of this, but I’ll circle back to what you said. You know, people connect with people and and when you can really get into your why and your passion and what makes you unique and what makes you tick, people do naturally relate to that so, so strongly agree with you that that that’s an important piece of this, but also just an acknowledgement that can be hard. And so that’s why, that’s why, what I encourage people do is, is follow some others, right? Follow some others that you admire what they’ve done, you resonate with them, and figure out how you can now learn some of these things and adapt them for yourself.

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:57]

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. And, you know, learning from others and emulating people that you see doing it well, or that are really authentic, and you’re like, wow, they’re really out there doing things the way I wish I did. Doesn’t mean that you copy them. It just means that you now have people to emulate that you can start building your own brand, your own why your own authenticity, your own differentiate around what you do, but understanding that you’re not the first person to ever have to figure this out. So yeah, and it just

 

Danny Decker  [18:24]

sometimes, it just makes you feel it makes a lot of people, I won’t speak for everybody, but for myself, it seeing other people do it really makes it less scary, right? It’s like, oh, oh, you mean I can say that? You mean I can do that? And it’s just like, I don’t know. Lawyers left precedent, right? And so I think it’s comfortable. It’s comforting to realize like, hey, no, there are people doing this very successfully, and I can do it too, and it

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:48]

doesn’t mean you have to be the same as everybody. Like, I continue to see people, and I know this is a thing, walking down the street with the selfie stick, doing video as they talk about their area of knowledge with a selfie stick or holding a dog or a cat or something visual in their hands as they talk, a burrito, whatever it is. And I’ve thought about it, but I’m like, it’s really not me, like, that’s not that’s not my authentic self. I’m being fake. I’m being something else to try to go along with some algorithm. And I’m like, just not going to do it. I’m going to do things my way, and by the way they work, what I’m doing. So I think we got to keep that moving. Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here and@lawyer.com They don’t just market law firms. They help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com Check them out today, with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get More rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today. Hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. Let’s go into for a few minutes about the brand and marketing and how it relates to AI, because now we have this whole other way people are getting found, you know through through chat, GPT and all the cloud and all these other AI tools. Now this is your space. So what should people be doing when they are looking to brand and create content that can get found online, different than maybe two years ago?

 

Danny Decker  [20:55]

Yeah, no, I love that we’re talking about this, this, I had a major eye opening moment about 12 months ago, probably 14 months ago now, when we had a I actually had a conversation with it, with someone who was thinking about hiring our agency. They’re a law firm owner, thinking about hiring our agency. And I typically will ask, you know, How’d you hear about us? And this guy’s like, yeah, chat GPT recommended you guys. And I was like, whoa. It just, it just hadn’t occurred to me. We were very early in the chat GPT era, and so that sent me down a rabbit hole. And then quickly realized, hey, we have clients who are actively getting leads and clients from chat GPT, people who are finding their law firm through chat GPT. And so I do a lot of webinars and workshops around this, you know. And Steve, I ask people all the time, you know, just raise your hand if you use chat GPT, you know, at least a couple of times a week for something that two years ago, you would have googled and like, at this point, like, everybody you know, 90% of the room is raising their hand like, this is a massive consumer behavior shift. People are are preferring to ask these questions of chat GPT and other AI platforms, and a big one is recommending a law firm or recommending a restaurant. And so we have deep dived, you know, pretty intensely over the last 910, months into, you know, understanding how to get chat GBT to recommend law firms. And I won’t stand here and tell you, we have it all figured out. Um, this field is evolving incredibly quickly, but I will tell you, we are getting great results for a lot of clients. And the formula is not that complicated, but there is a lot of nuance. And I don’t think we necessarily want to run through, like, every piece of technical information, although Steve, I do have, we’ve created an AI search visibility checklist, and I would be happy to, you know, give you know, give you the link. If you want to throw that in the show notes or anything, it’s, it’s just AI search checklist.com

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:45]

I’d love that. I’d love to, you know, put that in the chat, and I’ll throw in the show notes when I submit this. But that was amazing for people.

 

Danny Decker  [22:51]

And it’s just AI search checklist.com and they can download it. And I’ll start with, like, the high level is answer the questions your prospective clients are asking, right? So I talked a couple of minutes ago about why it’s so important have a list of the top five, top 10 questions that your clients ask the first time they speak with you, and you should have content addressing every single one of those questions, and it should be on your website. Okay, that is a great way to get cited on chat. GBT, here’s another one, Steve and I would love your your response to this, because I do get pushback with this more and more, AI search platforms, Google is starting to do this as well. Are offering a one click button to find pricing for a service provider. And so I think it’s really important. We’ve seen data that shows this is one of the most common questions that somebody asks when they’re looking for a lawyer on chat GBT is, how much does it cost? And so I am strongly advocating at this point that every law firm should have a pricing page on their website, and I get it. Not everybody works flat fee. It’s not always a neat answer. So what I tell them is, explain explain the range. A simple divorce in North Carolina, if you’re young, if you don’t have kids, if you don’t have any assets, might be $5,000 it could be $30,000 on the other end of the spectrum, if you do have kids and do have homes, right? And and explain that answer the question that is number one question that most clients are asking in certain practice areas. So you should be addressing that. Most lawyers aren’t doing that. And so you have a huge opportunity if you jump on that train now. Well, I

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:28]

have, I have two challenges with that. One is, you know, it’s like giving your hourly rate or giving even a range of like, what things, that’s very challenging for lawyers and law firms that are working with, you know, very complex, very different types of things, maybe some third party stories, but I don’t know that that’s going to play out the same as having like, a rate page. And I could say the same thing. One things I teach is that sometimes, if there’s a lawyer that’s charging 750 an hour, and the people that they’re dealing with are used to paying 500 an hour, and they’re not used to 750 Capacity they may need to go through, like a sales, free selling process, like a bloodletting exercise that drives up the value and the urgency and their willingness to pay more, and that’s what gets them to understand and appreciate 750 versus 500 if there’s a pricing page that lists out of that, it might disqualify a lot of people that they might capture as clients, because they’re giving things out to Earth. So that’s where I feel like there might be a rub unless you have, like, like, you have like, um, like, most subscription services, like, three levels, there’s the 99 a month, there’s a, you know, 250 a month, and you’re an enterprise level, that’s when I see pricing maybe being used better.

 

Danny Decker  [25:40]

Yeah, I completely agree with what you just said, and I actually completely embrace, embrace that philosophy. I certainly would not list an hourly rate. I wouldn’t list an hourly rate. What I would do is just find a way to answer the question like, how much is this likely to cost? And I get this maybe more appropriate for some practice areas than others. I think a lot of consumer focus. So estate planning, family law, immigration, criminal is probably where this is going to get the most value. And I just really think you can find a way to answer without listing your hourly rate. And you can say, hey, you know, depending on the complexity, you know, it might be from, you know, range from 3000 to $6,000 or right? Just, just find a way to answer the question. Because the reality is right now, in certain businesses, HVAC, for example, if you go to Google and you do a search, it doesn’t show up all the time, but I’ve seen it a dozen times. If you do a search for H back providers in Seattle, one of the buttons it will give you is have aI get prices, and if you don’t have any pricing information on your website, you’re automatically disqualified from that. And so it’s, it’s, I think it’s important today. I think it’s gonna be twice as important 12 months from now that that law firms, particularly consumer facing law firms, are finding a way to answer that question, and we don’t have time to get into it now, but, but I guarantee you, you can find a way to address the concern you had while still having some information about cost and pricing on your site. So completely respect your point, and you’re a sales pro and so

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:15]

well, totally get it, and I appreciate I still think it’s Yeah, yeah. But like, as a consumer, what you just said excites me. Like, I want to know that the internet can compare the top three HVAC guys in my area, the top window cleaners, the top landscapers, and give me pricing. Like getting pricing is like pulling teeth, and it’s really, you got to meet with people, and they got all this stuff, I think, for the legal business that’s moving to flat fee, that’s moving to, you know, away from the billable hour, this is going to become something truly important. So again, this is a wait and see. We’ll see type of a situation, Danny. We have to wrap up with Danny’s big mistake. What is it?

 

Danny Decker  [27:53]

Man, I could name any

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:55]

number of typical response. Where do you want me to start? You know? Yeah, right.

 

Danny Decker  [27:59]

I’m an entrepreneur. I make, you know, I’ve probably made three mistakes already this morning, but you know, one of the things I think about is, is several years ago, you know, we made the decision to focus, to basically add lead generation as a standalone service at our agency, and did it really well, but it still crashed and burned. And here’s why we we eventually realize the hard way, that most law firms don’t just need a flow of inbound leads. If they don’t have a an intake system, if they don’t have ideally, an intake person or a team, if they don’t have nurturing automations built in, they’re going to end up spending a lot of money and getting a bunch of leads that don’t convert, and they’re going to be really unhappy, and I’ve had those conversations and it sucked, and, you know, so of course, we’ve pivoted and tried to address that, but, yeah, that was a tough lesson. You know, in the marketing world, that seems obvious like that seems obvious to me. But again, your average law firm owner didn’t study marketing and doesn’t want to think much about marketing. They just want the clients to show up. And so what seemed obvious to me was understandably not obvious to them, you know. And it ended up with, hey, there are some clients that I’d love to go back and have another crack at building your marketing

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:21]

out for them, yeah. But the you know, the takeaway is it’s good to try things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they crash and fail, but it also takes you back to maybe what you do best and focus right? Yeah, yeah. I started a marketing agency. I did that for three years. I absolutely hated it. Made some money, but failed, and I just hated the way that it took me away from what my passion is. And I thought, you know, all these people that need BD, they need marketing, and so I’ll just add this other service, and it crashed and burned, similar to what you were saying, but great. I’m glad it happened. I’m glad I tried it, and now I’m back to focus. So Danny, thanks so much, man.

 

Danny Decker  [29:56]

And pretty soon you’ll, yeah, I would say, pretty soon you’ll achieve your dream. Of holding it, owning

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:01]

a Dairy Queen, right? There you go. I’m working. I’m working towards it. If not, if I don’t do that, at least I will occasionally enjoy a Dairy Queen. There you go. Take a moment. Thank our amazing sponsors. Of course, rankings, io, crushing it out there in the marketing space like you. Danny PIM con, coming up in October, you’re going to want to check that out. And then, of course, lawyer.com Great directory. A shout out to my friend Colleen there. And again, if you’re a law firm owner and you have not heard of or checked out the rainmakers roundtables, get off your island. Get out of your silo, get in a room where it happens with other very advanced business development minded lawyers that run firms, I know you’re going to love it. So check out my website. Be that lawyer.com for more information, Danny, people want to get in touch with you. They want to hear about spotlight. What are the digits?

 

Danny Decker  [30:48]

Yeah. So spotlight branding.com, lots of information there. You can find me on LinkedIn. I try to be reasonably active on LinkedIn. It’s Danny Decker. Just search for my name, and then if you want the AI search checklist. I mentioned it’s just AI search checklist.com and that’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:04]

something you created to help people find, like, what they need to do to Yeah, it’s a cheat sheet. It’s content.

 

Danny Decker  [31:10]

Yeah, yeah. It’s how to format your content, how to create a content schedule, basically how to get your stuff to show up on AI search.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:17]

I will be sharing that with my marketing director shortly. Danny, thanks again, man. I appreciate it. You know, I always love a good pod swap, and I think, you know, hopefully I stepped up for your audience, and you certainly stepped up for mine today. So I want to tell you how much I appreciate you and coming on the show. Thanks so much. Steve, yeah, hey, and thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 and change. You know, branding is so important, we can just build business and and do business development. And I’m all for that gang. But ultimately, if you can build do business development and go through relationships while you’re also creating content, building your brand and making sure people see you differently than the masses, certainly that’s not going to hurt your situation. So check it out. Everybody. Be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, and we’ll talk again soon.

 

Speaker 1  [32:06]

Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.