Sylvia Garibaldi: Turning Complex Legal Services into Clear, Client‑Winning Marketing

Learn how to turn complex legal services into clear, compelling marketing that actually converts. In this episode, you’ll hear practical strategies for repurposing content, strengthening your online presence, and building referral relationships that consistently feed your law practice.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Sylvia Garibaldi discuss:

• Niche marketing for divorce and legal professionals
• Positioning, messaging, and understanding your ideal client
• Repurposing podcasts, webinars, and videos for multi-channel marketing
• Why referrals aren’t converting like they used to
• Building referral partnerships through webinars and LinkedIn

Key Takeaways:

• Growth comes from consistent, repeated action paired with learning and improvement, not just doing more of the same.
• Clear positioning and messaging are critical so referral partners and prospects instantly understand who you serve, what you do, and the results you deliver.
• Repurposing a single piece of content like a webinar or podcast into social posts, articles, and lead magnets is “marketing 101” and dramatically reduces the content burden.
• Referral conversion now depends heavily on your curated online presence, including your website, social media, podcast appearances, and especially a strong LinkedIn profile with social proof.
• Effective referral relationships require intention, follow-up, and the right partners; they’re built over time through trust, value, and consistent communication, not one-off meetings.

“In business and life, we tend to want to have the outcome first, but in reality, it does take time, it takes doing those reps and consistency, and so for me, doing that repeatedly has helped me build that habit.” —  Sylvia Garibaldi

Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.

Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.

Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/

Thank you to our Sponsor!

LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/

Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let’s make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/

About Sylvia Garibaldi: Sylvia Garibaldi, CEO and Founder of SG and Associates, is a business strategist and speaker who helps service-based entrepreneurs around the world to grow their business to 6 figures and beyond, in a way that is aligned and authentic to them. She is the creator of the Serve First, Sell-to-Many Program that has helped many of her clients achieve outstanding results.

Over the course of 14 years, Sylvia has helped hundreds of financial, legal, mediation, and divorce professionals to grow their business and become leading experts in their field through results-driven marketing.

Sylvia is a featured expert and speaker in leading publications and professional associations across the globe.

Connect with Sylvia Garibaldi:

Website: https://im-campus.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sylviagaribaldi/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sylvia.sgandassociates/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:00]

Hey everybody, before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at Be That lawyer.com/community And other than that, please enjoy the show.

 

Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fritzen, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Bretson.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey, everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I am the host of the show, and just wanted to share, if you haven’t checked out Future Rainmakers, that’s my other podcast. What’s interesting about that one is it’s really more me to you direct, so you want to learn about time management, you want to learn about building your brand, more about sales free selling. Hear from some of my clients to talk about their stories and where they were and where they are now, and how we got there together, and what it’s like to work with me as a coach. All kinds of great insights there. Check out future Rainmakers on all the platforms that you can find. Sylvia, how are you? Good to see you.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [01:26]

I’m doing very well, thank you.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:28]

I said it seems like we just saw each other, because we did. I just on your podcast, like, what, two days ago, something like that.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [01:33]

That’s it. You got it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:35]

Yeah, all right. Well, I’m so excited. I love a good pod swap, and we’ve got a solid one today, and I’m excited to work with you and talk with you and just pull out, drag out of you all the goods, all the tactical, actionable things that lawyers want to learn. So, are you ready to play ball?

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [01:49]

Yeah, let’s do it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:50]

All right. Well, as I love to do, starting off with our quote of the show, this was really wonderful. Quote by Will Durant, summarizing Aristotle: We are what we repeatedly do excellent? Then is not an act, but a habit. Well, welcome again to the show, and tell us a little bit why you love that quote.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [02:08]

Yeah, I think that’s such an important quote, because it reminds me that real growth happens from repetition, right? So it’s doing those reps over and over again, and I think in business and life we tend to want to have the outcome first, but in reality it does take time. It takes doing those reps and consistency, and so for me doing that repeatedly has helped me build that habit. And so I can really, I can really relate to that quote and know how important it is in both life and business.

 

Steve Fretzin  [02:39]

Yeah, my only twist on that might be when I asked someone, do you have, they tell me they’ve been doing BD for 10 years, I go, well, do you have 10 years, you’ve been doing BD for 10 years, have you been doing BD one year 10 times, or the same way over and over again? So I think I totally screwed up that quote, by the way, but the, you get the gist, that it’s like, you know, we can’t just keep doing things the same way repeatedly, I think we also need to learn and improve, and like figure out where our dents and things are, and getting them fixed.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [03:07]

Absolutely, yep, totally agree with that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:10]

Awesome. All right. Well, Sylvia Garibaldi, you are the head honcho over it over at SG and Associates, and I’d love to hear your background and share that with everybody in around the marketing space.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [03:25]

Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me, Steve. I’m really excited to be here, especially with you and the work that you’ve been doing for such a long time in this industry. So, thank you once again for thinking of me. So, my entire career has been in marketing in various industries, and so for me, I think starting out working in a very large financial institution, doing marketing at a very high level, strategic marketing for branding of a big bank, and one of the things that became clear to me is as we were developing these marketing campaigns, and it trickled down to the sales force, meaning, you know, mortgage agents or financial planners, it really didn’t land, you know. So, because what we were doing is we were building a big brand, but when these folks had to actually go out into the community and start building their business and bring in new business, they didn’t know how to do it, and so that’s how I started SG and Associates was originally working with financial planners to help them market and build their practices, so that they could actually, you know, start attracting their ideal clients more consistently, and we had a lot of success with that, and so one day I was tapped on the shoulder, and someone said, ‘Hey, the work that you’re doing for financial planners, could you do this for certified divorce financial analysts? And at the time I had no clue, I had no idea what a CDFA was, and once I saw how the two were correlated, it made sense that we could actually help them as well, and so we started doing work with. Association of the Institute of Divorce Financial Analysts, and from there we were quickly introduced to the world of divorce, so you know we started working with divorce mediators and arbitrators, and of course divorce coaches and whatnot, and so that’s how we sort of fell where we are today, which is we work with lawyers, mediators, and divorce professionals to help them grow their practices using proven marketing.

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:27]

Yeah, and it’s interesting that you know lawyers, I think many of them feel like they’re, you know, special butterflies because they don’t, you know, didn’t go to law school and didn’t never really thought about the business or the sales or the BD or the marketing side of anything, and that they’re special that way, not in a good way or a bad way, just as it is, but what they don’t realize is there’s a lot of other professionals that also, you know, doctors and architects and engineers and people in all these other spaces that also come out into an industry where they have no idea what’s going on.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [06:00]

Yeah, what I think about when I think of this industry is I think about complexity, and so the work for the professionals that we help, they sell very complex services, and I just love being able to explain it in a way so that someone like me, who’s not a lawyer or mediator or a divorce professional, can understand what they’re trying to say and to build awareness, so that everyone can really understand what they do and see the need for their service. So I’m really passionate about that, because I think there’s a huge need for that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:33]

And so your focus in a specific niche and group, and you know, a grouping within the niche, but you also have this background where you’ve worked in a lot of different industries, so you know when we talk about, you know, my audience and the people listening, they’re going to want to hear not only how you’re helping in the things that people in the divorce world are, you know, how they’re marketing, but how that may apply to personal injury, how that might apply to someone in a corporate, you know, M and A space or a private equity space, so I mean, do you see, like, how would you say that marketing is different based on the various practice areas that exist?

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [07:09]

Well, I think it’s important when you are an expert to be able to really understand who you’re marketing for, what their needs are, because it can be very different, so while the marketing principles do stay the same, right, so the same sort of vehicles are going to apply for each profession, but how you use it is slightly different, or the messaging and the positioning will be completely different. So I think the power of being able to understand an industry or a niche really just adds value because it, it makes the marketing more, I guess it allows you to reach the target in a more successful way, I would say.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:49]

So, then, but the

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [07:49]

marketing principles do stay the same.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:51]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to, I want to take that a step further and ask you to give us an example of, you’ve got a divorce attorney or a mediator, and they’re looking for leads, they’re looking for business coming in, and so you’re, you know, finding out more about their targets, you’re finding out more about their business, their practice, and all that. And then you make recommendations and work with them on execution. What would be an example for in the niche that you’re in? And then what would be an example of how you have to change it up for someone in financial services.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [08:23]

Yeah, so I mean one of the key things when we start working with professionals is to really understand where they are in the process, you know, meaning how large is their network, where what do they want to specialize in, like who are their referral partners, who are their end clients, and so we always make that distinction, and so the first question we’re going to ask is Who’s your end client, which is your paying client, and then who is your referral partner, which are the referral partners that can actually help promote them or bring referrals their way, and so for us looking at where they are is absolutely important. Where are you right now, and where do you want to go, and you know one of the key things, depending on where they are, is assessing what are the tools we need to help them achieve. Is it, do they want to build more awareness, do they want to bring in more leads, and so it absolutely starts with what are their goals and where they’re heading, and not there. I mean, every plan looks very different, you know. So, if we were to start saying, “Hey, I think Steve, you need to do webinars based on where you are right now. Someone else coming into the industry could be something completely different, depending on where they are and what their network is, right? So, if they’re not really connected to people, will webinars work, or do they have to build their profile up more before they can actually start using that tool, if that makes sense.

 

Steve Fretzin  [09:43]

It does make sense, and so you’re it’s not a one size fits all, and there might be people that love doing webinars, and that’s going to help them to be incredibly successful as a thought leader and putting themselves out there. There’s other people that might be terrified of that, and you’re going to find a different avenue for them, but maybe. That might accomplish similar goals.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [10:02]

Absolutely right. So, no one starts in the same place, and that’s exactly what we do. So, you know, some people may say to us, “Well, I don’t really like speaking. So, if you don’t like speaking, what do we need to do next to help you reach.. you know, everyone wants to grow their practice, but to what extent, right? And to what ability? And I think for this market and this niche, and for any lawyers, referral building is the lifeblood of their practice, and so we work with them to help them build up their referral partners, so that they can start to, you know, co-collaborate, and then bring in new business based on that, because that is still one of the key ways that professionals bring in business is through referral partners and building those referral partnerships, so that is definitely a strategy that we help them build.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:48]

I was talking to a group today, I have this pinwheel of sort of my world, and like my personal branding, and podcasting, books, articles, webinars, speaking, video, social media and how they all work together simultaneously to create a brand that you know I really enjoy, and I think other people, you know, can appreciate the content I’m creating. However, when I looked in the faces of my clients, they didn’t look real happy, because they’re like, “There’s no way I’m doing all that, and I get it, like I didn’t ask them to, and I would never, you know, suggest that they should, but I was like, pick one, pick one. Do you want to write articles? Do you want a webinar? Do you want a podcast? Like, what do you want to do, and how do we dissect that to make sure that that’s actually useful to you? And then I want you to touch on this, picking it, we talked about, but how should they be repurposing it and using it better for branding, because I think sometimes people speak, or they write, or they post, and then it’s done, and it’s in the ether, right, and then there’s nothing after that, and when, in fact, there could be a lot more meat on the bone.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [11:53]

Yeah, absolutely. So, you’re talking about repurposing as a tool,

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:56]

I am.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [11:57]

Yeah, so, so important, because a lot of them will say, this is a lot of work, you know. I’m not sure I know what to write, you know, who to write it for, what the messaging should be. And so they stall, and they, they don’t do the work, and they just, you know, so there’s this, this uncertainty around that. But you could take very well, as you said, you could take a podcast, you could take a webinar, and you could repurpose that into several social media posts. I mean, that’s marketing 101 right? Like, take that, and then just basically, you know, you can get social media posts out of it. You could create a lead magnet from it. There’s so many opportunities to repurpose, and then, of course, with AI, then it, you know, I mean, the power just, you know, is exponential, so repurposing is a great solution for those that are, you know, stuck on time and feel like they have to keep reinventing the wheel when they really don’t. So that is the beauty of repurposing. I love, I love that approach a lot.

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:58]

Well, a good example too is, so I, I immediately, when I had a speaker at my round table group, I did a screenshot with everybody giving a thumbs up and whatnot, and I immediately posted that on LinkedIn with the name of the speaker, and then all of the people that were in attendance, right, asked them to comment and share, so right, I’m repurposing the photo of it, then I’ve got this video, and I could take the video and the transcripts, and I could create a Q and A of my clients asking the questions, the expert answering the questions, and that could end up being content for my YouTube channel, that could be content for social media. I could take the transcript, turn that into an article about what lessons were learned in my round table, and have AI helped me create an article that could be published somewhere? Right, so like we just have to get creative and sort of take what, what we, what we have in front of us and realize it’s more than what it appears.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [13:54]

Absolutely, yep, and they do have more tools and more information at their fingertips that there really is no excuse not to do it right, because it’s so much easier than it was years ago.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:05]

Yeah, one of the biggest challenges that lawyers have is they invest time and energy in marketing and business development, whether that’s structured or random, is the question. But then they, they get the at bat, right? They get the, they get the at bat, and they blow the intake. They don’t follow up soon enough. Maybe they don’t have a good sales-free selling style, like we talked about on your show about how to actually walk a buyer through buying process. So, why would you say referrals aren’t converting like they used to? Like, I think there was a time where you know a pitch used to get it done, and today seemingly less.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [14:41]

Yeah, that’s a really great question, and I think buying behaviors have changed, so you know, and I hear this conversation quite a bit. I hear people saying, well, you know, I still get really great referrals, but something’s happening, they’re not converting as they used to, and you know, we go. Back to what they have curated online, and it’s very clear that consumer behavior has shifted. The first thing they do is they’re going to Google you, and they’re going to Google you. They’re going to go on to AI platforms, they’re going to type in your name, and they want to learn about you. They want to know what you’re saying, whether you are a trusted professional. Do you have years of experience behind you? What, what are the reviews saying about you? So, they’re doing all of this research before they ever pick up a phone, and so the problem that we’re seeing is a lot of professionals have not really – they, they’ve done a better job of it, but not consistently curating their online content, meaning their social media, maybe they’re a guest on a podcast, maybe they’re hosting a webinar or YouTube channel, so people are doing their research, and if they don’t find that they can learn enough about you, they’re going to go on to the next person, the next professional, because the reality is they’re not just, you’re not the only person, the only professional that they’re going to be researching, there are others, and they’re going to go to the one that seems to have more of that profile, where they can learn from them, they can get a sense of, do I trust this person, is you know, does this person really know what they’re talking about. So, behavior has changed, and they are much more savvier, and they are going online and they are spending a lot of time there before they ever pick up the phone and I think that’s one of the biggest shifts we’ve seen.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:28]

Yeah, I mean, one of the things I do as a buyer of restaurants, going to restaurants or movies or, you know, landscapers or whatever is, and we all do this as buyers more than ever, is we do our research, right? We don’t mess around, we don’t want to have a bad experience if we can help it, and we want to hear what you know social proof is that this is going to be a good experience. And so I’m considering that, you know, most attorneys aren’t spending enough time on their bio, they’re not spending enough time on their LinkedIn, they don’t have LinkedIn recommendations, three to five at the minimum, because that’s social proof of, oh, you know, Bob Johnson wrote a lovely testimonial on LinkedIn, and I know him, and because I know him, that trust is transferred, and so then I must, you know, then I must be trustworthy, right, and I think, so, like, you know, incomplete. I said this. We talked about this on your show, that you know, incomplete LinkedIn profiles is like a book cover that just says, you know, lawyer, or just says, you know, IP lawyer on it, and that’s it. And that’s not the book I want to read. I want to read something that’s going to, you know, get me excited about solving problems with someone who’s the top expert in intellectual property. Right, I want to open that book, and yet people can continue to have really poor profiles. I think they just don’t really, absolutely, how important it

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [17:52]

1. Yeah, and you’re bang on, because I mean, when we start working with clients, we look at their profiles, and I can’t tell you how many times you know we’re looking at these profiles, and we had no clue that they were an expert in X, because it was not showing up on their profile. So, there’s a lot of disconnects, you know, in their work, and you know, I’m not faulting them, I’m just saying that, you know, they’re not spending hours on marketing, and nor are they experts at marketing, so you know it’s important to look at those things and see that yes, there is a disconnect, and here’s how we can make it more comprehensive, so that people looking at that are going to know instantly what you do, who you serve, and the types of results that you get, and you’re absolutely right that that is missing, and we see that all the time.

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:42]

I’ll give something out to everybody. If you, if you Google Steve Fretsen, maximize your LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I think you’ll, you’ll get taken to my YouTube channel, and there’s a video that I did that has more than just the profile on there, but if you just want to improve your profile, you could do a split screen of my video and your profile up on a separate screen or next to it, and just work through the five to 10 things that I’m suggesting that will take your profile to the next level, just as a quick little way to just, you know, get something out of out of this that’s, you know, that that’s going to, you know, not that you know, just like an additional thing that we’re going to do to help you, you know, one up from where you are now, you know, level up. Hey everybody, your next big client might call it 8pm on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up with Lex reception? A real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock, and right now be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www dot lex reception.com/partners/be that lawyer to claim your offer. That’s www dot lex. Reception.com/partners/be that lawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretson here. and@lawyer.com they don’t just market law firms, they help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events. They’re building stronger connections across legal visibility intake events growth, that’s lawyer.com Check them out today with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today. So, let’s talk a little about referrals. I am a big referral guy. I love getting referrals. Actually, talk about how the word referral – I’m not a huge fan, but I like quality introductions. We can talk about the differences, but what are your best referral building strategies that lawyers should be engaging in? Like, what’s your take on that?

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [21:10]

Yeah, so I go back to I would say having some kind of marketing asset that their referral partners can go back to and refer to and use as a tool, so I’m going back to the webinar approach, because it works incredibly well for building referral partnerships, and so I think anything that builds trust and visibility, so that people get to know how you work, is absolutely important, so the webinar strategy, when done consistently, and I’m not talking about, you know, webinars that you may deliver today, and then maybe you do another one six months from now, that’s not consistent. There needs to be a consistent protocol in place, so that people get used to knowing that there is a place that they can go to to learn from you, and so with webinars and building referral partners, we see a lot of success with that, because what happens is, as a professional is building their webinars up, they are doing this, let’s say, for example, they’re doing it every month, then you know they will be inviting their referral partners to come in, and their referral partners will see how they are working, what you know, case studies they’re sharing, getting to understand their expertise live, and, and so when they know that that professional is putting on another webinar the following month, because this is a consistent protocol that they have in place, then what happens is they end up sending other professionals who may need their services, and then they start sending prospects that they know may need their services, and so it just continually feeds in, and it’s a fantastic way to build the know, like, and trust factor extremely quickly. So that is by far one of, you know, a really tremendous tool that lawyers can leverage to get results quicker, if you will, yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [23:03]

yeah, and I love it. In the recent article I wrote for Above the Law about climbing Karma Mountain, which got some attention, which was wonderful. I had some lawyers emailing me saying that really resonated with them, because it’s what they’ve been doing, they just didn’t have a name for it right, and it’s going out and really being, being helpful, really connecting others, referring others, like being a giver, and doing it selflessly in a way that’s not going to eat up all your time, but also that’s going to help other people achieve their goals with the understanding that we’re really, you know, putting ourselves in a great position to build karma, where people really do trust us and want to help us. They’ve seen us perform the act of helping and being selfless, and I think done with intention and with integrity is a fantastic way to drive referrals as well.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [23:55]

Absolutely, yeah, and it’s building that know like trust factor, so thatis key, and you know, I think there’s, there’s this belief that, or I’m not sure I would call it a belief, but a thought process that you know you only need to meet a referral partner once, and then you know magically you’re going to have this amazing relationship, and all these referrals are going to be coming in, and that’s just not the reality, you know, so it’s, it takes time, and you know, I would say, like, another great way to actually build that up quickly is, you know, I’m a big fan of LinkedIn, it’s a powerhouse, and you know, using LinkedIn to build relationships by connecting to the right referral partners is absolutely critical, like you’ve got access to this world of professionals all on LinkedIn, and, and you can target them, you can, you know, look at geography, that there’s just so much there, and so when professionals start reaching out to other professionals that that they feel that they can build a relationship with, because they follow their work, you know. They may like some of their posts, they’re really paying attention to who they are, and so they’re building that network intentionally, but then they take it a step further, so they start communication with them through the DMs, and I think you know having that conversation through the DMs is a fabulous way to start those relationships, and it’s not a salesy approach, right? You’re not going into the DMs and starting to sell that. That’s not the purpose there. I mean, you really have to start to build the relationship, because it’s a great way to shut the door immediately if you start selling through the DMs. But we’ve had a lot of success with our clients helping them do that, so it’s not unusual for our clients to book two to three meetings a week, just using this process to build meetings, or to actually, you know, get meetings booked with referral partners, and so, in fact, I even created a podcast episode on that, which is episode 121 of our podcast, which is the Serve First Sell Later Marketing Podcast, and so I go into details there about how does this work, and what you know, what’s the first thing you say, what’s the second thing that you need to do, and then how do you take it offline, because that’s the goal, is to take this online relationship offline.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:18]

Yeah, that’s fantastic. Well, let me, so do you have an example of how example that would help lawyers sort of navigate and figure out how to get more referrals when they’re really feeling like they are putting it out there, but they’re not really seeing that return? That’s a concern some people. I was like, hey, I’ve been doing this, I’ve been, I’ve been priming the pump, I’ve been helping everybody, but I’m not really getting the flow back. Are there some tips or tricks that you would suggest that they maybe need to do to help that along?

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [26:49]

Yeah, well, I think usually there’s a gap or something’s missing if that’s happening, so you know you need to look at your positioning and messaging. Does it make sense? I mean, do referral partners understand what you do?

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:03]

Yeah,

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [27:04]

and is it clear in everything that you know that’s out there that promotes you as a business or as a lawyer? And so you know the more detailed you are with who you’re looking for and at what stage, the better results you’re going to get. So you know we’re a referral planning toolkit that you can send out to professionals, saying, “Hey, this is who I serve. These are the best types of professionals, or you know, clients I’m looking to gain more of, and these are our services. And keep that communication going back and forth. There’s usually, you know, a lot of time that goes by between two professionals, and if they’re not keeping it in touch, if there’s not, you know, hey, this is what I did this week, or let’s go grab a coffee, like there’s got to be some kind of connection that will allow them to continue to build it, and it’s kind of going back and forth to build that relationship, and it’s not built in a day, that’s for sure, neither

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:00]

was Rome.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [28:01]

Neither was Rome. Right,

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:02]

something I would add is that sometimes people need a little coaching. So I’ve referred you a few things. You and I are friends, we trust each other, and you’re just.. you’re not referring me back. Maybe we need to have a conversation where I say, you know, are you unsure about what I do? Are you like, ‘Is can I help you? How can I help you? Help me. And maybe, like, you’re like, “Thank God, I really am struggling with.. I want to send people your way. Just don’t, you know, I just can’t think how. Maybe I need to then step up and really do a little bit of coaching to explain, you know, the targets I’m looking for, the types of lawyers, the types of CPAs, the.. you know, the kinds of people that work best with me, and just work through your brain and your network. Maybe I need to go in LinkedIn, pull up a list of five or 1015, people to approach you with, and suggest, hey, I don’t know if you know these people, but here’s 10 or 15 people that I found on LinkedIn that look super interesting, and if you do know these people, cup two or three of them, and you think they’d be open to meeting with me, maybe we can make that happen, so just you know, again, we can’t always leave it up to other people. We in let it go, sometimes we have to step in and maybe be a little bit more helpful.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [29:10]

Yeah, absolutely. And then I think there’s the fine line between understanding who’s going to be a good referral partner and who just isn’t. Yeah, you know, there are givers and there are takers. Yeah, and we see that all the time, so I guess the question is, Who do you want to build a relationship with that you know ends up being fruitful for both, because if it’s, you know, if it works well for one and not the other, you know that relationship is not going to last very long,

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:33]

right? On well, that’s a great place to ask this last question, which is, What’s Sylvia’s big mistake?

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [29:40]

Oh, well, I’ve made quite a few of them, actually.

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:43]

You and everyone else is sort of a common theme here on Be That Lawyer. That holy martyr, we made a lot of mistakes.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [29:49]

That’s right, and that’s a good thing, I think. Right,

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:51]

it can be depends on the mistake.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [29:53]

Yeah, right, right, right. So I think you know one of the mistakes that I’ve made repeatedly, and I think it’s. You know, is thinking that growth just comes from doing more, more content, more outreach, more effort, and so what I realized is when I started to build systems and processes around things, and I tested things, that’s when I really learned, you know, what’s working and what isn’t, and stopped myself from continuing to do the same thing over and over again without testing, and we do that a lot in marketing. In fact, you know, an example is when in business, when I started a while ago, we were testing out different methods, and when we were looking at the webinar system, you know, it became very clear we had good registration rates, but the show up rates were very low, and you know, and we kept doing the same thing over and over again, and I thought, “Wow, okay, this is a great opportunity. We have a high registration rate, but we don’t have enough people showing up live, so why are we continuing to do this? And so we started to tweak things, we started to send more reminders, we use the DM channels, and so we’ve kind of refined it now by testing and doing it as frequently as we have, and the show up rate now is between 60 to 70% for our webinars, which is well above the industry

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:12]

average. Amazing.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [31:13]

Yeah, so, but it took a lot of time to figure that out, and it was painful because there was a lot of lost business, right? The body, yeah. At the end of the day, we did lose business because we couldn’t get enough people to show up. So, testing and learning, and you know, not being afraid to ask for feedback too in that process.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:33]

I love it. All right. Well, listen, a wealth of knowledge and a lot of takeaways from today’s show. Let’s go ahead and thank our wonderful sponsors, lawyer.com Lex reception rankings IO, and of course, Pim Con coming up in October. People want to get in touch with you, Sylvia. They want to learn more about SG and Associates, best digits.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [31:51]

Yeah, so they can go to SG and associates.ca or they can find our podcast on any platform, the Serve First, Sell Later Marketing Podcast.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:00]

Awesome, awesome. Where I recently appeared, and you’ll be before my this show comes out, your show with me, I think, will come out, so we’ll have that.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [32:07]

Yes,

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:08]

love your pod swap. We’re

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [32:09]

doubling up.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:10]

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Again, I know 510, 15 takeaways from a show like this. I don’t think anybody’s going to be too upset about it. So wonderful, and I just want to continue to get to know you better and keep building that relationship, and hey, maybe there’ll be some referrals for us to pass.

 

Sylvia Garibaldi  [32:27]

Absolutely, thank you so much for having me, Steve.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:30]

Yeah, you got it. My pleasure. And thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 and change. Again, you know, hoping every time you’re listening to the show, you’re getting a little bit better at being that lawyer, someone confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, be safe and well, and we will talk again very soon.

 

Narrator  [32:50]

Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.